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Thread: Need help with a table saw decision

  1. #16
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    The Dewalt fence is more than adequate on todays saws. The Rigid not so much, Bosch make a 10” jobsite saw that’s also a pretty decent saw , fence and stand combo.
    For a beginner I’d say either one DeWalt or Bosch would be better than a older contractors saw, I’ve owned a couple of 70 and then 80’s contractors saws , both where junk. Even a Sears 10” saw IIRC, back in those days there where NOT the jobsite saws we have today.

    I have a old ten inch Makita that I really like when I have to take a saw onsite, it’s light weight , fits in the truck with all the other stuff a guy needs to install cabinets.

    But for what the OP’er is looking for I’d recommend the Bosch or DeWalt to get started, if he ends up banging out of the hobby he’ll be able to sell the saw easily , IF he doesn’t trash it , leave it out in the rain , drop it etc.

    On our jobs we have both type of saws they see heavy use , run good thin kerf blades on them and they are hard to beat , far better than the original 10” saw I brought in 1974 or 75 , a big brand name , IIRC a Porter Cable , it was junk , kind of looked like a Concractors saw or the time , but it was junk. Sold it or gave it away when I joined the navy , maybe my then brother in law ended up with it ???? Good riddance!

    After that in the , in 1981 or so , just out of the USN with no credit Sears was the way back into wood working / carpentry.
    Another contractors style saw, better than the Porta Cable , but still way less saw than the current job site saws IMO.

    In 1985 ish I got a Grizzly cabinet saw with the Biesmeyer 52” fence , been a great saw. It’s not a Powermatic , but it’s close and at the time less than 1/2 the costs.
    Ive worked in cabinet shops with Uni Fences , and IMO a Uni Fence is a waste of money , you can’t easily build jigs to use with the Uni fence , like you can a Beisemeyer.

  2. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Drew Walton View Post
    The thing is that I'm looking for something a bit more entry level (sub $500) at this point. And while there are some that are great saws for more than that, it is difficult for me to justify spending more than that for a single piece of equipment on a hobby that I'm just starting. Assuming that I stick with it, dropping a few grand on a much better saw in a few years will be much less of a concern. Additionally, in my current house space is low so that is also a concern. (Plans to move in the next few years)

    I'm not trying to find the deal of the century, I'm just looking for a tool that will provide decent quality for what it is, will allow me to get a feel for the work, and is priced appropriate to what it delivers. It just seems like it goes from under $100 rusted out hunks to over $800 nice with little in between. Maybe I'm wrong in assuming that there should be something in between?

    That one PM66 that's on there is beautiful though, if I had the space for it and knew that I would stick with it I'd snatch it up in a second.
    I'd look for a Delta Unisaw. A Unisaw in decent condition is generally about $500 and is a big step up from a contractor saw. The Unisaw was the first cabinet saw and Delta made essentially the same Unisaw from the late 30s when they first introduced it until the 1990s when they made them left-tilt, so they made a bunch and they are widely available. A PM66 is a nicer saw than the Unisaw but they typically cost a grand or more if they are in usable condition. If you're willing to drop a grand on a used saw, you can get much more saw than a PM66 for that money (Delta 12/14, PM72, and any number of big old iron saws such as the Whitney 77/177, etc.)

    The main things to note about an original right tilt Unisaw would be that many aren't particularly powerful by modern standards with most units being 1 or 1 1/2 hp until pretty late in the series, they are right tilt saws, none have riving knives, some are 3 phase, and all of them would need new bearings and a good going-over. The single-phase units made from the introduction until sometime in the late 1950s used repulsion-induction motors instead of capacitor-start motors. These aren't very significant issues but do deserve mentioning.

    - A 1 or 1 1/2 hp motor is going to struggle with ripping 12/4 hardwood with a full-kerf blade while a newer cabinet saw with a 3 or 5 hp motor won't. A sharp thin-kerf blade with the correct tooth geometry and tooth pitch will allow you to rip that 12/4 hardwood, but a little more slowly than shoving it through a 3+ hp unit.

    - Right tilt vs. left tilt is debatable whether it matters but all current saws are left tilt which is felt to be slightly safer with performing bevel rips, by some individuals.

    - Riving knives are handy but a splitter, which you can attach to any saw with an insert plate, achieves the same purpose albeit less elegantly.

    - 3 phase saws are typically available for less cost than a single-phase saw, tend to have more powerful motors, and are easier to work on as the motor simply consists of a stator, rotor, fan, bearings, and a housing. It does not need any capacitors, shorting necklace, or other hackish methods to get itself started. You do need to figure in the cost of a VFD or other phase converter into your total cost though.

    - Arbor and motor bearings are inexpensive on these saws and you can get all four for $60-80 from a decent maker (e.g. not bottom of the barrel Chinese bearings.) Replacement is not difficult and it can be done easily with a mallet, a piece of black iron pipe, a gear puller, a couple of pipe clamps, and a couple of pieces of scrap wood. I've done many bearings using this method and it works well.

    - Repulsion-induction motors are more complex than the typical capacitor motors as the shorting necklace is "touchier" than a centrifugal switch but they do have the most starting torque of any induction motor out there and the ones you see today have been around for a long time and still run. They are certainly repairable and many have done so successfully.
    Last edited by Phillip Gregory; 08-12-2018 at 4:47 PM.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bryan Lisowski View Post
    I haven't looked but the Rigid Contractor saw isn't a bad saw and can be had for about your budget. If you were in the military, you could get a discount.
    I kinda agree...I saw one of these recently in a local 'Creeker's shop and it's a pretty nice tool.
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  4. #19
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    Maybe this is what I should do. Just get a new saw around the same price range and then sell it when I decide to upgrade.

  5. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Drew Walton View Post
    Maybe this is what I should do. Just get a new saw around the same price range and then sell it when I decide to upgrade.
    I'd buy something used and if/when you decide to upgrade, you can sell it for about what you bought it for. Trying to sell an inexpensive plastic tool is not easy and you will have to accept at most half of what you paid for it. I'd definitely go the used Unisaw route.

    I started out getting independently into woodworking debating between rehabbing a used cabinet saw vs. buying a new one. At that time, I had no experience in rehabbing used tools and simply bit the bullet and bought a new Grizzly/Shop Fox 3 hp cabinet saw. It's a nice saw and I've used it for years without issues, and it does anything I ask of it within its capabilities, but for what I paid for it (3x what a used Unisaw cost) I was well into the range where I could have bought a much larger and much nicer used industrial saw. In fact, there was a Delta/Invicta RT40 an hour away from me for half of the price, or a Robland slider WITH a rotary phase converter on the other side of town for only $200 more. Still kicking myself over those...

  6. #21
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    The Unifence on that saw is worth $200 in used but good condition. Delta made many of these saws in the 34-44* series with almost no significant difference between them. I bought a 34-444 Delta Contractor saw for my son for $200 and would love to find a 54" Unifence for him, so to me, that saw is well worth $400. In the picture the fence is in the low fence position, but the extrusion can be easily turned 90 degrees clockwise for high fence use, one of the features of a Unifence. If you purchase it and want T slots on your fence for adding feather boards, etc. Peachtree Woodworking www.ptreeusa.com sells a square shaped Fence extrusion for the Inifence called a "Uni-T-Fence". I have and use one of these as well as the original Unifence extrusion because each has advantages, and I can switch them so easily. To me, these Delta Contractor Saws are every bit as accurate as a Unisaw (because I have one to compare to) but they have no built-in saw dust containment, since there is no cabinet under them, but they do have the standard 3/4 X 3/8 miter slots, which is not the case with some of the presently offered other brands of contractor saws. Most jigs and fixtures available for table saws today require the miter slots to be 3/4 X 3/8" or you can't use them with these other brands of contractor saws, but they will fit and work fine on a Delta Contractor saw. Another great feature of these saws is the dual voltage motor. It is specially designed to provide 1.5 hp of power at 120 volts AC so it can be used in new home construction on any home power outlet, but when converted to 230 volts, it will produce a full 2 hp, so the contractor can use it with the benefit of an additional 1/2 hp when it's back in his shop where he has the 240 volt power for it.

    If it's been listed for 2 months, he might be willing to accept a lower offer. With the Unifence I would be very willing to buy it for $400 if it ran well and came with a working Unifence and Delta Miter Gauge. I might even be willing to go a bit higher if it was in better than average condition. The 54" Unifence is a great feature and definitely worth $200 without the saw. If you find a better deal on a Unisaw with a good fence, you can always get your money back or nearly that on this saw. They don't depreciate much because they are still good saws and still in demand, but only in the $400 range and not much higher.

    Charley
    Last edited by Charles Lent; 08-12-2018 at 6:56 PM.

  7. #22
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    There's a Unisaw(I didn't find it before because my search term was table saw and the word table isn't in the ad) about 2 hours away for $400. However I don't have a 220 outlet in my garage. So not only do I need a vfd to account for the 3 phase requirement but I'll also need to pay an electrician to run a 220 line from my box (other side of the house in the basement which is finished)

  8. #23
    1 hp and smaller 240 volt 3 phase motors are generally able to be run from a 120 volt single phase outlet as there are voltage-doubling VFDs available that will convert 120 volts single phase to 240 volt 3 phase.

  9. #24
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    The ad says the motor is 2hp 3 phase.

  10. #25
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    Another Delta, this one a 34-441 also with the Unifence, right extension table and mobile base is there (apparently just searching for "table saw" misses out a quite a bit of contractors and cabinet saws). The innards of this one look much much cleaner.




    Price is also $440, don't know if it's based on what the other ad was for, or that's the going price for these in this area. Think I'm going to reach out and try to get one of them, hopefully I can talk down a bit. Of these two which would you all suggest?

    https://stlouis.craigslist.org/tls/d/delta-10-contractors-saw-with/6656695811.html

    https://stlouis.craigslist.org/tls/d...617713837.html
    Last edited by Drew Walton; 08-12-2018 at 10:39 PM.

  11. #26
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    That one looks better, I’m still not a Uni-saw fence fan. I’ve used one, we replaced it with a Beisemeyer , my Grizzly has a Beisemeyer.

    I still think from what your stated situation is the new job site saw would serve you better.

  12. #27
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    I went and looked at Job site saws at Lowes yesterday and I have to ask what's up with the texturing on the tables? All of them, to varying extents, had texturing on the table top. It seems like that would promote the piece grabbing and, therefore, inaccurate cuts. Of course I'm just starting out here so maybe, in my inexperience, I'm overestimating how much of an effect it would have?

    Or is there an easy way of smoothing them down that I'm missing?

  13. #28
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    That contractor's style saw you just posted on looks pretty nice. And I "am" a UniFence fan... Price at $440 is a little high for the age, but it does include the mobile base on a very clean saw. Probably worth making a reasonable offer on, IMHO, as it's much more capable than any "job site" type saw.
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  14. #29
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    The textures are like Teflon , made to not have stuff stick to them. Like any saw table if you leave pop cans on them , or paper cups , spill your beer on them , etc , they’ll be sticky.
    We wax our saw tops , at work , and I wax my Grizzly steel top in my shop.


    Quote Originally Posted by Drew Walton View Post
    I went and looked at Job site saws at Lowes yesterday and I have to ask what's up with the texturing on the tables? All of them, to varying extents, had texturing on the table top. It seems like that would promote the piece grabbing and, therefore, inaccurate cuts. Of course I'm just starting out here so maybe, in my inexperience, I'm overestimating how much of an effect it would have?

    Or is there an easy way of smoothing them down that I'm missing?

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drew Walton View Post
    I went and looked at Job site saws at Lowes yesterday and I have to ask what's up with the texturing on the tables?
    Form follows function. Those saws are primarily designed to lop off soaking wet 2-by material. The texturing will not be your issue. Some larger machines do this as well depending on their use.

    You would not be able to smooth them down without creating a really irregular surface unless you happen to have a machine shop hobby as well . This lets troublesome material slide easier across the machine's surface. I prefer to wax nice smooth surfaces myself but, you are working in a budget.

    Buying at this tier you won't necessarily get everything you want but, if you stick with the craft, this won't be your last tablesaw. I would try to get the best work-ready saw you can within your budget. If you are up for a bit of a project you can buy a larger used machine with the idea that bearings or other minor work may be required.

    It may seem that we are giving you more to think about than answers to what you feel is a simple question. Unfortunately, there are a lot of opinions and preferences when it comes to tablesaws.

    For example, I would not want a right tilt machine such as you show. This is a personal preference. If that was all I could find or afford, I would certainly adapt. Contractor format saws have problems with beveled cuts. This is a design issue and only a few are actually robust enough to do anything other than 90 degree cuts with any accuracy. These few machines approach cabinet saw costs and so are generally bypassed by folks not needing the portability of a contractor saw.

    A cabinet saw also takes up less room and allows a more compact functional footprint. This can often be a moot point if you are going to build a pool table sized outfeed table for handling sheet goods like a cabinet shop might do. In your basement or garage, other things are a priority; dust collection for example.

    To shorten your decision cycle and get you making sawdust I think you need to be brutally honest with your requirements list. Know what you want to do and know your budget. It may be that your budget won't get you a saw that will do what you need. In that case you just wait a bit and save your money. If your needs are not too diverse, you only need to pick a machine you can afford.

    Job site saws are a compromise on every front except portability. Kind of like trying to compose a magazine article on your phone; convenience overrides function. A contractor saw will be a step up and you can do all sorts of things to a contractor saw to make it more usable:

    Fence Extn 1.jpg

    This one had an upgraded fence, PALs, machined pulleys, link belt, dust collection and 100# of sand in the base for stability. I made a lot of furniture with this $100 saw that I threw $200 of aftermarket stuff at. When you are trying for the best decision you will pay in cash or in time. You can buy "nice" or you can patiently wait for "nice" to come along. Good luck, we're with you
    Last edited by glenn bradley; 08-13-2018 at 11:59 AM.
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