Saw files

[Joe Rogers]

Have to register to see the linked information. Don’t understand that limit as one cannot audit the data to determine if joining is desired.
I have heard that the Mexican Nicholson files are improving. The first iterations were soft. Perhaps the process was over swung to increase hardness. As they continue to manufacture files perhaps continued feedback and product returns for warranty adjustment will accelerate the improvements to a correct quality level.
Joe

[Pete Taran]

So Stewart, I guess we will have to disagree. People can believe some random far ago experience from you, who has filed what, dozens of saws in their lifetime, or from me, who uses them everyday, currently, and has filed 10s of thousands of saws in their lifetime. The distinction is just that simple.

When Nicholson moved their production to Mexico, there were issues as you might expect. But they have worked them out. That is the reality on Aug 12, 2018.

[Warren Mickley]

About twenty years ago I was watching a Williamsburg blacksmith file a latch he had forged. Looking to start a conversation I asked how long a file lasted doing that kind of work. Another smith, way in the back called out "depends who's using it."

A good hand filer is able to make a file cut easily without much wear. I think guys should be bragging about how long they use a file, not how quickly they can wear one out.

[Jim Koepke]

A good hand filer is able to make a file cut easily without much wear. I think guys should be bragging about how long they use a file, not how quickly they can wear one out.

This makes me think of an old adage, "nothing can be made to be fool proof as there will just be a quick found supply of more ingenious fools."

jtk

[Pat Barry]

I couldn’t disagree more about the quality of Nicholson files. I have always used the files I sell to others. I have changed brands many times over the years. Started with Simonds, then Bacho, then Grobet and now Nicholson. If I can’t use them to my satisfaction personally, then I don’t sell them.

I use a Foley filer for the vast majority of my file work. Since it’s mechanical, I often take almost 1/8” inch off per single pass. This is extreme, but if teeth are regularly spaced but poorly shaped, this saves on retoothing. No person could put enough pressure on a file to cause this kind of cutting by hand. In my experience the teeth wear away before the corners fail. I don’t think there is a perfect saw file made. I don’t think there ever was. Changing angles when hand filing puts a lot of pressure on file teeth at the tips. When you have a piece of steel that is hardened to 70 Rockwell, it can’t take a lot of abuse.

Having said all that, expecting a file to last forever is the wrong approach. I use one edge per saw and move on. When it’s done, it’s time for a new edge. I can’t speak for Nicholson quality years ago, but current production works just fine for me. I have been selling Nicholson for about 2 years now. Instead of searching for unobtainium, try what’s avavilable.

One edge of a file per saw and then its done? That seems pretty low for an expectation. What is the reason for your result? Do you file both forward and backwards or just forward only? Do you press very hard and take deep cuts? It would seem the corners would always be the fragile point, why don't your corners wear out before the faces, is that because you are more focussed on the tooth surface and not the gullet?

[David Eisenhauer]

With an apology to David R as I do not mean to hijack a thread, but I would be very interested in Warren? Jim? Stewie? anyone? pointing me in the direction of any information on correctly using a file so as to prolong its life and achieve desirable results. Like many, I was raised in a farm/ranch/do-it-yourself environment and was told to "file it down some so it will fit" or "sharpen it with a file" without any other instruction other than "don't drag the file backwards over the cut". My only self-produced opinion towards better file use lately has been to attempt to allow the file to cut under its own power as opposed to bearing down on the file with lots of pressure and I don't even know if that is correct. Any help would be appreciated.

[Kees Heiden]

It's a matter of feeling how the file cuts. A good file has a very distinct feel of cutting. So it is a matter of using just enough pressure to get that feeling.

That, and using even pressure throughout the stroke and using most of the file, not just the middle bit. Also support your work well, so it doesn't vibrate.

[Simon MacGowen]

That, and using even pressure throughout the stroke and using most of the file, not just the middle bit. Also support your work well, so it doesn't vibrate.

That's about it! Stoning would help a lot if the teeth are not uniformly worn.

I self taught myself how to sharpen a saw, and have found the longevity of a file depends on many things in addition to the quality of the file, which is only one factor. Peter Taran may be one edge per saw because he is looking for efficiency, and people pay for his file expenses. I get more filings per edge because speed of completion is less important to me.

I wouldn't be surprised if some people prematurely dull their files and edges by not lifting the files or going light on the return strokes. Other factors like number of teeth, hardness of steel, etc. also affect the wearing of your files. My saw files are either Bacho or Nicholson.

Paul Sellers claims he lengthens the life of a saw sharpness using a diamond hone. I have had no experience with that to form a view on it. But if it does work, it could reduce the wear of any file.

And I enjoy saw filing more than sharpening, because I always sit down when I sharpen a saw.

Simon

[David Ragan]

Stewie, is there a way to view that information w/o the registration?

David E-no worries.

Earlier I mentioned something quasi-technique about the desirability of an arris on a file. One merchant w good reputation sells them, says keep one from messing up the gullets.

After reading all this, I don't know what to think or buy.

Technique is a big factor, of course.

How about a poll-data from files purchased in the last 12 months?

[Tom M King]

With an apology to David R as I do not mean to hijack a thread, but I would be very interested in Warren? Jim? Stewie? anyone? pointing me in the direction of any information on correctly using a file so as to prolong its life and achieve desirable results. Like many, I was raised in a farm/ranch/do-it-yourself environment and was told to "file it down some so it will fit" or "sharpen it with a file" without any other instruction other than "don't drag the file backwards over the cut". My only self-produced opinion towards better file use lately has been to attempt to allow the file to cut under its own power as opposed to bearing down on the file with lots of pressure and I don't even know if that is correct. Any help would be appreciated.

Long smooth strokes, and a vise that holds the saw securely enough so it doesn't chatter. I use the whole file. I only use one hand, and the file is seated in the tooth on the little smooth end first. That gives a split second to make sure I'm putting it in the right place. A light is placed so the last filed tooth shines brightly back at me, as I go to the next tooth. I try not to wait too long to sharpen anything, so when sharpening a hand saw, I almost always only take one stroke, but vary the pressure depending on what it needs. I never back up with a file.

I've never heard of anyone else filing with one hand, but that's the way I learned to file a chainsaw chain, and using two hands always felt awkward to me, so that's just the way I do it. As for how long it takes, I never timed it, but remember before going to lunch one day, not too long ago, I had been cutting the peak Cypress shingles on a roof with an 8-point, and we broke for lunch. I sharpened one side of the saw while the first helper was washing his hands, and cleaning up, and the other side while the other helper washed his before it was my turn.

The first video I saw of a person, mentioned here, that complained about files breaking down, was taking very short strokes. I wasn't smart enough to understand the benefit in that. I buy full length files, so I use the whole file.

If you watch someone file a competition timber cutting saw, you won't see them bearing down really hard, but more like they are caressing the tooth.

I'm sure I don't do anything like as much sharpening as Pete does, but I use handsaws a lot working on old houses because often it's faster to mark something that's most likely out of square, or plumb with a preacher, and cut it with a handsaw. When building new houses, all siding was cut this way.

Only picture I have stored here that applies. The siding looks tight, but you can move any piece in, and out with a fingertip. Even if siding is getting painted, I don't like to use caulking unless it's absolutely necessary, and certainly don't want to use it on bare wood.

edited to add, to answer question about what type of file: I've bought a lot of singles to test, but don't end up keeping up with what's what, so I've lost track, but can't remember ever having any teeth break down. They just get so they won't cut, but sorry, I don't keep up with how long that is either. I do really like the Black Diamonds that came out of my Grandfather's General Store that the doors were just closed on in 1935.

[Tom M King]

I don't know the maker of my vise. I bought it from The Best Things, and Lee had never seen one like it before either. It has no maker name, or mark on it. I found this picture from when it first came, beside a more commonly available type that most people will be familiar with. It'll hold any backsaw (except the miter box one) without needing to move the saw, and only requires one move for hand saws.

[Stewie Simpson]

Stewie, is there a way to view that information w/o the registration?

David E-no worries.

Earlier I mentioned something quasi-technique about the desirability of an arris on a file. One merchant w good reputation sells them, says keep one from messing up the gullets.

After reading all this, I don't know what to think or buy.

Technique is a big factor, of course.

How about a poll-data from files purchased in the last 12 months?

David; the major concern with rounded corners on the taper file is a loss of tooth height within the formed gullet.

Stewie, is there a way to view that information w/o the registration?

David; not that I am aware of.

[Pete Taran]

One edge of a file per saw and then its done? That seems pretty low for an expectation. What is the reason for your result? Do you file both forward and backwards or just forward only? Do you press very hard and take deep cuts? It would seem the corners would always be the fragile point, why don't your corners wear out before the faces, is that because you are more focussed on the tooth surface and not the gullet?

Pat,

As I mentioned above, I machine file most of the saws I sharpen. 90% of those have teeth that are out of whack with angles all over the place. This places extreme wear on the file, so I blow out a single edge getting one saw sharp. Retail, a file edge costs $2 on average. It doesn't seem like a huge investment to me to expect it to do more. If a saw has nice even teeth and just needs a touch up, I can get two sharpenings from a single edge.

I don't push files to ridiculous limits. As you might expect, filing saws for over 25 years, you perform a lot of experiments on what works and what doesn't. A file cuts best when it is new. That's not rocket science. Pushing it further can yield results, but they are not as good as if the file were new. I figured this out long ago. I built a reputation on perfection, and my customers deserve the best I can give them, so I use a single edge because that yields the sharpest, fastest and smoothest cutting saw. All the files I have used over the years lasted and held up similarly. Simonds, Bacho, Grobet, they all lasted for about one sharpening per edge. All lost teeth on the edge, all got trashed. To think of a file as some perfect tool that is to be reused is foolish. It's not a $500 Japanese chisel, it's a $6 piece of hard steel that gets a little more worn out every time it touches metal. When it's shot it's like a used up piece of gum. It gets spit out and a new one is used.

To answer your direct questions, I only file forward, been at this 25+ years, not figuring out that a file only cuts on the push stroke in that amount of time is just silly.

As I mentioned, I use a machine that presses harder than any human ever could. Not every time, but when I need to remove a lot of steel, this is the approach. It is not kind to the file teeth.

The corners and the faces wear out similarly as I take the time to line up the file with the tooth to be filed. It is interesting to note that Foley made their retoothing punch a few degrees less than 90 degrees so when a new set of teeth is filed, the point of the file does little cutting. This extends the life of the file. If all the teeth on the corner are gone, the file can cut no deeper. Since a deeper cut is required to sharpen a tooth, when that happens, the file is trash and can be used no more. The way I file, and the way filing should be performed is that the file bears on the front of one tooth and the back of another at the same time and to the same degree. This allows you to sharpen a saw with a single stroke per gullet.

The only thing I'm focused on is getting the saw as sharp as it can be and as smooth cutting as it can be. Anything else I'll leave up to others to prognosticate on.

[Stew Denton]

Hi Jim,

Speaking of fools and sayings...a friend of mine used to say: "Things can't be made"Fool Proof," only fool resistant, because fools are too determined and resourceful." How true.

Regards,

Stew

[Stewie Simpson]

I will only make this comment once; my personal views on the need for better quality taper files should be considered closely aligned to the needs of the vast majority of hand saw users that still sharpen their saws by hand.

Those views should be considered in direct conflict with the values imposed by someone who is using a Foley saw filer, who openly states that he is applying greater downward pressure on the file than any human could, and then follows up that comment with, to think of a file as some perfect tool to be re-used is foolish.

Stewie;