Saw files

[Pete Taran]

Stewart,

I’ll call your saying only once thingy and raise you one.

If I am using a file with more pressure than any human can and achieve excellent results and get a really well performing saw, then there can be no issues with the file for hand filing users. I use a machine because it yields better results than anyone could by hand. Perfect exact angles every time. Fleam and Rake, all the same.

Really sorry you got got a bad batch of files 5 years ago. Perhaps it’s time to get over it and move on. It is, as they say, a bit of an old chestnut.

[Stewie Simpson]

If I am using a file with more pressure than any human can and achieve excellent results and get a really well performing saw, then there can be no issues with the file for hand filing users. I use a machine because it yields better results than anyone could by hand. Perfect exact angles every time. Fleam and Rake, all the same.

Pete; I can only recommend you put aside that foley machine, allocate the time required to improve your saw sharpening technique, and you will achieve a better insight into the needs of your clientele who are not relying on a saw filing machine.

regards Stewie;

[Pete Taran]

Stewart, appreciate your kind input, but when you have reached the acme of perfection, suggestions like yours just ring hollow.

[Vincent Tai]

Pete; I can only recommend you put aside that foley machine, allocate the time required to improve your saw sharpening technique, and you will achieve a better insight into the needs of your clientele who are not relying on a saw filing machine.

regards Stewie;

Stewie; Pete has probably been filing saws for longer than I’ve been alive. I’m sure he came to the foley machine to meet customer needs and the turn around time needed while facing the amount of saws + varying degrees of condition. I don’t think a disagreement on the quality of a file warrants saying Pete needs to improve his saw sharpening technique; the guy was co partner in the Independance Tool business that brought back modern well made backsaws made by small businesses; at least to my limited understanding. I think his experience of the hard use of saw files in a machine is valuable and logical; I think his belief that our human hands can’t push them harder then the foley makes sense, although with a bad vise setup and rattling that is a one way path to hell for the file. A saw plate with the tooth line set too high above the vise is not great for the file when the plate flex is now pronounced and starts attacking the file. Perhaps a less personal and set look at what the both of you say might allow for more questions to be raised and answered.

All this talk of files and the hand cut rasps in the Auriou thread gets me thinking about making some files again. I have made a few before on the fly for some tasks and actually have been putting off making a few I need for a particular project. Perhaps I will fiddle with saw files, but they do not seem easy to handcut. Yikes another project.

Happy filing,

Vince

[steven c newman]

Went to an Estate Sale last year ( I think?) and did not have any room for these two machines.....
Belsaw grinder.jpggrinder.jpg
So...I didn't even ask them how much they wanted for both.
I get about 4 saws per Stanley 6" slim taper file ( $5.95 + OH Sales Tax). I mainly sharpen the rip saws I have...about two or three times per year, usually when another wayward saw wanders into the shop.
I set the saw in the saw vise as low as I can...gullet bottoms are a blond hair above the edge of the jaws, barely. Also have a habit of "tapping" the file on the jaws every few strokes, seems to knock any stuck filings from the teeth of the file. I also just let the file do the work. I am never in a rush, I don't mind having to slide the saw to get to another section of teeth.

After I had sharpened one rip saw awhile back.....and took it for a test drive....it was making a rip cut faster than my hand could get out of the way. My "Saw Stop" was the left index finger....one slice across, and I stopped.....that cut healed up without a scar....unlike a similar "nip" from the bandsaw....which did leave a scar.

Just the way it works in MY shop...YMMV.

[lowell holmes]

I will add my two cents, I bought this set. Good product from a good vendor.

http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/pag...?p=69854&cat=1

http://www.disstonianinstitute.com/

[Randy Chesnut]

I'm sure I'll get slagged for this but I have to admit that I have adopted Paul Sellers' hacksaw technique for extending the life of my files, particularly when the teeth are really wonky or I am converting to a much different profile (rip to cc, for example). I use Tome Fèteira files and have been very happy with them but can get quite a bit more life out of a file if I can spare the gullet cutting required of the apices of the files. I put a fine hacksaw blade backwards in a pad saw handle and pull it Japanese style until I get a bit of a gullet expansion. I pull from one side on rip saws and do half of teeth from each side on a cc saw. Theoretically, I guess this also slightly increases the saw's ability to clear the debris as well.

I also find that the life of a file varies greatly with the type of steel used in the saw. Different steels (and different manufacturers) cut different and sound different.

Surely there is variation between and within file manufacturers so that one batch may be somewhat different. The Tome Fèteira files all seem excellent but also seem to vary a bit between files. I just swap them out when they start to squeal or don't slide well. Producing (and then using) a sweetly sharpened saw is such a joy that I have no trouble changing files or file sides whenever I sense cutting misbehaviour.

[Warren Lake]

Good info on files, have several hand saws donated and been holding off not wanting to learn on them, have asked a couple of sharpening services and didnt like the answers. I sharpen all kinds of other stuff die grinder on bandsaw blades sawzall blades and and, Have my original files then a ton from an auction then the old guy told me to take all his tools few weeks before he passed. Im not in the shop right now are the Nicholson files labelled mexico rather than US or do they even put either country on them?

[Mike Brady]

I'm a bit surprised to hear about machine filing of saws. I've seen the equipment but I was thinking that machines were used primarily during the manufacturing of saws. Besides Pete Taran, do any of the well-known saw makers or sharpeners delivery their saws right off of a filing machine? Lie-Nielsen? Bad Axe? Daryl Weir? Mike Wenzloff? Matt Cianci? My impression is that they might use a retoother, but followed by hand-filing and setting. I file my own and was taught by Daryl Weir.

[Simon MacGowen]

I'm a bit surprised to hear about machine filing of saws. I've seen the equipment but I was thinking that machines were used primarily during the manufacturing of saws. Besides Pete Taran, do any of the well-known saw makers or sharpeners delivery their saws right off of a filing machine?

Are Veritas saws machine-filed?

I got the feeling that they are but I have not come across any information about that aspect. They cut very well when compared to some of those you have named.

Simon

[Stewie Simpson]

I'm a bit surprised to hear about machine filing of saws. I've seen the equipment but I was thinking that machines were used primarily during the manufacturing of saws. Besides Pete Taran, do any of the well-known saw makers or sharpeners delivery their saws right off of a filing machine? Lie-Nielsen? Bad Axe? Daryl Weir? Mike Wenzloff? Matt Cianci? My impression is that they might use a retoother, but followed by hand-filing and setting. I file my own and was taught by Daryl Weir.

Mike; avoiding any further discussion on the merits of saw filing machines, with the saw making work that I do, the teeth are all shaped, sharpened, and set by hand.

My personal views on the Veritas Star-Trek backsaws I shall keep to myself. But from what I hear, they represent excellent value for your buck.

[steven c newman]

Starting to remind me of a fellow about 20 years ago.....he started a Grand Crusade against all things from Minwax. Page after page, sometimes three or four at a time. He was trying to get everyone who would listen to buy a different brand. Why? Turns out he was selling that other brand, and Minwax was cutting into his sales. Then, he also started on shellac, saying the ONLY kind to use was freshly made from flakes. Flakes that you could buy from.......yep, he was the main supplier in the tri-state area of flake shellac. Brands like Zinsser were on the crusade's hit list.

Now a days...seems to be something like that going around......makes one feel like watching late night tV......Info-mercials.

[Pete Taran]

Mike,

Saw Filing machines have been around since before there was power to make them run via motor. I know for a fact that Lie Nielsen uses a filer because when I sold him the business in 1998, the saw filing equipment was part of the deal. Mark Harrell uses an Acme filer which he prefers to the Foley. I also know that Mike Wenzloff, if he still makes saws, uses a filer as well because we had many conversations back in the day about how to get the best performance out of it.

I'm not sure where this "doing it by hand is better mindset" is coming from. Blacksmiths no longer forge steel for car leaf springs because a better result can be made by machine. People no longer tap rubber trees and cook the sap down to make tires because it is easier done by machine. Most people no longer save fat trimming from beef to render to make their own soap. Machines are around because in almost every instance, the product that is produced is superior to what could be done by hand.

When I first started making dovetail saws back in 1996, I was already an accomplished hand filer. I taught myself to file to tune regular saws I had purchased and get them cutting right. I had a dream of filing the dovetail saws by hand, but after doing a couple dozen with 17 ppi teeth, it was just too time consuming and tedious. I looked for a better way. That better way was the foley. With the proper file and machine modifications, it will produced a better saw plate than anyone could by hand. It is impossible to hold the file completely consistent when hand filing like a saw filer can. You might think they are the same, but if you look at the teeth under the microscope on teeth that small, you will see the angles are all over the place.

I've found, in the end, people don't care how you get their saw sharp, just that it is sharp and cuts great. That is the goal I strive for, not some outmoded feeling for nostalgia of the old days.

FWIW.

Pete

[Phil Mueller]

Always impressed with your saws, Stewie. Beautiful work.

[Jason Martin Winnipeg]

It's disappointing that someone has to defend themselves for using a machine in their business or even for personal use. Just let everyone use what they want to use, it's not hurting you or anyone else at all. Sheesh.