HUGE Problems Using Vinegar / Steel Wool / Tea to make wood look weathered

[dustin wassner]

I manufacture a few items that I use this finish with, so the number of pieces to do is usually 200+. I made a dipping tank since it is faster and more consistent than paining the solution on.

I'm ready to give up... I try a test piece in the solution and it comes out the exact light brown I am looking for, or I add a little vinegar to adjust the mix to achieve what I am after. I then dunk the real pieces and they come out with a purple tint. Been chasing my tail on this for 3 months now...

I am currently mixing 1 gallon steel wool, 10 of the 12 'pieces' that come in the steel wool pack (size 0000), and 30 black tea bags. I let it sit for 3 weeks.

The only two reasons I can come up with that change the color between my sample and actual:
-I dilute the finished solution 50/50 with vinegar to get the color I am after since straight solution is way too dark. By adding new potent vinegar, maybe something is being reactivated and as time passes (letting the sample dry) between sample piece and actual?... I am going to try using water to dilute it instead...
-Or, when the solution is sitting and waiting between sample and actual piece, exposure to air is causing something to change?

Either way, it is EXTREMELY frustrating to make batch after batch of this stuff and dilute the solution to the perfect color, just to see the actual pieces come out purple... I feel like I have exhausted every variable.

Any help or advice from your experience would be appreciated.

DW

[glenn bradley]

Sounds like you need to test with the actual mix you are going to use; time-wise, not just mix-wise. You may need to make a batch for each run, using the same formula, to get consistency. That is; using a 3 week 'steeped' batch on Monday may not provide the same result as the following Thursday.

I would have moved to a soluble dye solution by now. Transtint in water if grain raising isn't an issue and DNA as a base if it is. You don't mention any additional finish after the dip but, I assume there is one. This may have to be modified for the dye to get the sheen you are after.

[dustin wassner]

Thanks, Glenn

I don't know what more I can do time-wise - as soon as the solution is ready I do a test piece in the morning, let it dry for 2 hours (fully dry is the only way to tell what it actually will look like), dilute with vinegar as necessary, and then start dunking the final pieces. The solution is sitting for the minimal amount of time as it is. I use all the solution with each batch, so each run gets its own solution.

The problem I face is not that the solution from Monday doesn't work on Thursday, its more like the solution from 8am is no longer working at noon...

The reason I am using this particular finish is because I have found nothing else that can give as good of a rustic/weathered look as this.

This is the only step in the finish process, and grain raising is not a concern. The pieces are wire-wheeled before this to increase the distressed look.

Hope this all makes sense.

DW

[Steve Schoene]

Relying on chemical solutions to effect color changes is fraught with potential risks of the kind you have encountered. Someone with more chemical background might find the way to get to your desired color modifiying your solution. But, it is not needed. Instead of playing with a chemistry set, you can use analine dye to consistently achieve the same desired color. For example Lockwood offers a great many colors, and if none of those are quite right, colors can be readily mixed. Once you achieve the desired hue and shade it will remain consistent.

[Doug Hepler]

Dustin

I see two issues in your description. First, the objective of steel wool and vinegar is an ebonized (blue-black or deep purple) color, not tan. Second, the reaction is supposed to take place in the wood, not in the vessel. Because different species of wood contain different amounts of tannic acid, we may pre-wash the wood with tea or tannic acid itself. When you mix the tea into the iron acetate solution that reaction (iron tannate?) takes place in the solution instead of the wood. I don't know whether iron tannate is soluble in this bath. If you have a suspension then you would need to keep it stirred for uniformity (just guessing about that point).

If you want a tan color, just try a wood dye. If you want food-safe dye, just try strong tea or even coffee.

Have a look at https://www.popularwoodworking.com/p...ical-ebonizing

Doug

[dustin wassner]

Thanks guys. I will look into the dyes. One thing I do like about the current solution I use is that it gives a contrast of color - like in the areas where the wire wheel removes the grain, the color is darker there. Overall, it just has a nice, weathered look to it (aside from the purple). Will I still get this uneven, weathered look from the analyne dyes? I need to avoid the even, 'manufactured' look.

Can anyone recommend a company, or maybe a rep at a company, that sells the dyes that I could send pictures of my product to so they could recommend a color to start with? I have no experience with these dyes.

Perhaps I could also try a tea bath first, and then a second bath of just the iron solution.

The pieces are 28" x 3.5" x 5/8" and the tank is just slightly larger than this. Pushing the piece to the bottom and lifting it out seems to churn the solution and keep everything in suspension.

[Doug Hepler]

Dustin

Behlen Solar-Lux might be a good choice. Highland woodworking has a color chart. Your local Woodcraft or Rockler store can help you, also

Doug

[dustin wassner]

Thanks, Doug. Have you found the color charts to be accurate? The wood I am using is resawn 2x4's, so I believe it is Hemlock - very light color.

Do you think that using the bath process like I am with the dye is a viable option? - again, I have never used dyes before so I don't really know what to expect.

Thank you for all the input, I appreciate it.

DW

[Doug Hepler]

Dustin,

You should take it from here. A pint of Solar-Lux costs about $15 and a quart of reducer (to lighten the color) costs about $10. You can blend various tints to get what you want. Hemlock probably would not change the tint too much but dyes in softwoods can be unpredictable. You will have to play with it until you find what you want.

Doug

[dustin wassner]

OK. I just got off the phone with a lady at WD Lockwood and she said that I MUST use a clear coat of some kind over the wood after the dye stain goes on, or else the stain will come off if it is rubbed or gets wet. She also said this was the case with the oil and alcohol versions.

She recommended mixing acrylic clear coat in with the dye stain solution and this might work...

Is this true that I have to clear coat over the stain or it will rub off?

[Doug Hepler]

Dustin,

NGR Dye like Solar-Lux penetrates the wood but yes, some might rub off. I doubt that enough would rub off to change the color of the object. It might stain hands, etc and might run if the object got wet. I did not understand that the dyed objects would need to withstand handling. As I recall, you want a rustic (unfinished) look. So, you could dip the dyed objects into diluted varnish and hang them up to drip or you could give them a light spray with a clear finish from a can. If you apply a very thin coat of dilute finish it will soak into the wood before it dries and will not leave a visible film on the surface. You can tint Polycrylic (water-based acrylic varnish) with Trans-Tint or with acrylic artists colors. You can buy tinted polyurethane varnish under the brand name of Polyshades. If you thin it enough it might give you the look you want.
Doug

[Wayne Lomman]

Dustin, if you use any 'stain' that is based on a polyurethane or any type of varnish, you will not get the look you want. These types of finishes are actually toner, not stain and just add a uniform colour on top of the surface. Weak paint in other words.

You need to go back to your magic brew. It has worked in the past so it will work again once you have sorted out what has changed. You have 3 ingredients - vinegar, steel wool and tea. Have you changed the brand of any of these? Has the packaging changed indicating a sneaky change by the manufacturer? Go through this step by step and eliminate variables one by one until you either find the change or you are happy nothing has changed.

Go through your process. Is the ambient temperature a lot hotter/colder than when it worked before? Are you mixing in a different container? Is the initial chemical reaction progressing as you would expect? Review how long you need to leave the solution to rest before use. Three weeks seems like a long time. Three days is a bit closer to what I would expect.

Is the timber any different to what you have been using before?

In summary, write up a list of every minute step and ingredient for the process and analyse each one. As you have said, you are getting nowhere at the moment so you need to take a deep breath and calmly go through it all in brutal honesty and you will find what the problem is. It could be as simple as a change in the inhibitor on the steel wool. Cheers

[Ken Fitzgerald]

It's my understanding that the steel wool/vinegar mixture works by reacting with the tannins in woods. Different species contain different amount of tannins and I would suggest that even among a given species woods from different environments could have different amount of tannins and thus the mixture would have a different effect.

[Stan Calow]

What if you made it a two-step process? First the tea bath, then the iron bath.