Sharpening for chisels and planes

[Greg Parrish]

With my new Lie-Nielson planes showing up and a handful of their chisels on the way, I’ve been reading about sharpening stones till I’m dizzy. I have a tormek with jigs but think I probably need flat stones for the best edge.

Are the Shapton glass stones best? Something like this setup? https://robcosman.com/collections/sh...apprentice-kit

The Lie-Nielson site looks to use a 1,000, 3,000, 10,000 setup in their sharpening video for their honing guide. Are these the best approach?
https://www.lie-nielsen.com/product/...nes-?node=4203


just trying to pin down something and was thinking of maybe combining ideas from the two with a trend 300/1,000 diamond plate to sharpen at 1,000 and to flatten stones at 300 and combine it with the Ohishi 3,000/10,000 stone from LN.

I did search but again it makes my head swirl trying to figure out best route for my really nice new tools. any thoughts? Thanks.

[David Bassett]

At its core sharpening is just removing the dull parts of the steel. Any of the options you mention should work fine, but while the Shapton Glass stones have their fans they are usually considered an expensive option (with high cost per mm of thickness.)

The issue the L-N blades have, with some stones, is that some abrasives won't effectively cut the hard carbides in A-2 steel. The "gentler" abrasives tend to be found in natural stones and until / unless you open that Pandora's box shouldn't really come into play.

Since your blades are on the way and his service can be very slow, I hesitate to mention Stu's, at Tools from Japan, Sigma Set and Budget Solution, but they are well respected and great values.

One other thing you will need with stones, especially water stones, is a way to flatten them. This can be as inexpensive as drywall screen on a flat surface (messy!) or the frequently preferred diamond flattening plate. Atoma is the most common plate I see recommended, but almost any option has it's fans. One (currently out of stock ) option I think is the best tradeoff of price & quality is Jon at Japanese Knife Imports Diamond Flattening Plate

[Luke Dupont]

With my new Lie-Nielson planes showing up and a handful of their chisels on the way, I’ve been reading about sharpening stones till I’m dizzy. I have a tormek with jigs but think I probably need flat stones for the best edge.

Are the Shapton glass stones best? Something like this setup? https://robcosman.com/collections/sh...apprentice-kit

The Lie-Nielson site looks to use a 1,000, 3,000, 10,000 setup in their sharpening video for their honing guide. Are these the best approach?
https://www.lie-nielsen.com/product/...nes-?node=4203


just trying to pin down something and was thinking of maybe combining ideas from the two with a trend 300/1,000 diamond plate to sharpen at 1,000 and to flatten stones at 300 and combine it with the Ohishi 3,000/10,000 stone from LN.

I did search but again it makes my head swirl trying to figure out best route for my really nice new tools. any thoughts? Thanks.

There is no best approach. Some people use sand paper. Some people like myself prefer oilstones. Some like man-made stones, some prefer natural stones. Some people use a guide, others prefer free-hand. There's pros and cons to each, of course.

For starters, I think your idea of a diamond plate and a single 3000/10000 grit waterstone is a good place to start. A good diamond plate is useful no matter what system you eventually go with, and is useful for getting things dead flat (as long as it comes flat itself).

My general advice is to learn initially with a coarse, quick cutting stone that stays flat. Try sharpening free-hand: it's not difficult and will give you the flexibility to sharpen all kinds of tools that won't fit in a jig -- not to mention allow you to use the whole surface of the stone. Don't fret too much about angle: your body will learn. Stay consistent and patiently work the bevel until you feel a burr. That indicates that you got down to the edge. Then flip back and forth between the bevel and the back and work off that burr gently to get a true cutting edge. That's the key to sharpening. Learn to get good geometry first. Then you can worry about polishing to higher grits and getting a sharper cutting edge. For a long time I just sharpened on a diamond stone and a loaded strop, or an India oilstone (about #400 grit) and a loaded strop. Both methods were very simple, quick, inexpensive, and gave me a very good edge.

That's just my take, though. I've never used a tormek. You might also prefer to use guides/jigs ultimately, and if their limitations don't bother you / they do everything you need, then that's perfectly fine.

[Luke Dupont]

At its core sharpening is just removing the dull parts of the steel. Any of the options you mention should work fine, but while the Shapton Glass stones have their fans they are usually considered an expensive option (with high cost per mm of thickness.)

The issue the L-N blades have, with some stones, is that some abrasives won't effectively cut the hard carbides in A-2 steel. The "gentler" abrasives tend to be found in natural stones and until / unless you open that Pandora's box shouldn't really come into play.

This is a really good point / thing to consider. I personally avoid such steels as I like to use natural stones -- both water and oil, and I prefer to be able to sharpen and repair edges easily if they get chipped or damaged. I don't mind trading a bit of edge retention for ease of sharpening (and the ability to use my favourite stones). I also think it's easier to learn to sharpen on softer steels.

But, those are purely personal opinions, and if you already purchased tools on the harder side don't worry about it: you'll have some excellent tools and just need to find a system that will work with them.

Diamonds will cut just about anything. I don't know anything about which synthetic waterstones are good/bad for hard steels, but I'm sure more knowledgeable people can offer you some good suggestions.

[Greg Parrish]

Thanks guys. I guess I’ll stick with the water stone LN sells and recommends and go the route of picking up that 300/1000 Trend diamond plate to use as my 1,000 and the 300 to flatten the 3000/10,000 stone.

I already ordered the LN hone guide with the chisels as it just looks too easy to use for bench chisels at least. I’m sure over time I’ll get the hang of free hand sharpening too. By then I’m sure like all my other tools my sharpen stones will refine themselves too.

[Andrew Hughes]

Greg nothing wrong with what ever you pick. The time you spend mastering your setup will soon enough make you a expert.
The Tormek is a good machine because the hollow grind makes freehand easy.
Sharpening threads are ego driven because everyone’s right

[Chet R Parks]

Here's what I do. Tormek with 10 inch, 800 grit CBN wheel, to 1200 DMT diamond plate, to Spyderco super fine stone. BTW I don't think you can go wrong with the new SE-77 jig for the Tormek. As always YMMV but I'm vary satisfied.
Chet

[Stewie Simpson]

At its core sharpening is just removing the dull parts of the steel. Any of the options you mention should work fine, but while the Shapton Glass stones have their fans they are usually considered an expensive option (with high cost per mm of thickness.)

The issue the L-N blades have, with some stones, is that some abrasives won't effectively cut the hard carbides in A-2 steel. The "gentler" abrasives tend to be found in natural stones and until / unless you open that Pandora's box shouldn't really come into play.

Since your blades are on the way and his service can be very slow, I hesitate to mention Stu's, at Tools from Japan, Sigma Set and Budget Solution, but they are well respected and great values.

One other thing you will need with stones, especially water stones, is a way to flatten them. This can be as inexpensive as drywall screen on a flat surface (messy!) or the frequently preferred diamond flattening plate. Atoma is the most common plate I see recommended, but almost any option has it's fans. One (currently out of stock ) option I think is the best tradeoff of price & quality is Jon at Japanese Knife Imports Diamond Flattening Plate

David raises a very valid point regarding the Shapton Ceramic GlassStones.

Size

The Shapton GlassStone measures 210mm x 70mm x 10.5mm. This is approximately 8-1/4" x 2-3/4" x 3/8". Each GlassStone is 10.5mm in total thickness with 5mm ceramic sharpening matrix and 5mm glass backing plate. This size is a good size for sharpening most tools and knives.




What is a GlassStone?

The stone itself is not made of glass. The ceramic sharpening matrix is actually white. The glass is only on the bottom of the stone to serve as a base. The grit and micron equivalents are marked on the underside of the stone and visible through the glass side for easy identification.


The blue line represents stone consumed.

[Greg Parrish]

Wow, if I interpret that graph correctly the shapton pro japan is the better buy, no?

[Stewie Simpson]

Wow, if I interpret that graph correctly the shapton pro japan is the better buy, no?

So, what does this bunch of squiggly lines actually represent?
The blue line is the amount of stone ‘used up’ during the white steel test. The stones are ranked from left to right on how much of themselves they gave up in the quest for knowledge.
The red line is the number of follow up strokes on the #5000 Naniwa Superstone to get the polish to the edge.
The green line is how broad the polish on the bevel was once it touched the very edge (represented as a percentage).
Now, the blue line goes up, as you’d expect it to. What’s interesting is not on the left half of the graph when looking at the green line, but what’s happening on the right side of the graph. From the left, the green line is very predictable. Blue goes up only slowly, green stays right up there, reflecting that the amount of stone consumed for those stones was low, and that naturally the level of dishing on the stone/rounding of the bevel was also low. The small deviation up there isn’t something you’d notice in day to day sharpening, so on the left, yes these stones “stay flat”.
As the graph shows, it is obvious that using up more stone translates into dishing and bevel rounding, until you hit the very end of the graph with the Sigma Select II and King Neo. These two stones had a significant amount of their life taken away (actually less than a percentage point, but still significant!) but not that much dishing evident. In the case of the Sigma, actually very little dishing was observed, and if these stones were graded on observed bevel rounding, they would be much closer to the left side of the graph.
Why?
Simple, the Sigma Select II and King Neo are intended for very tough, abrasion resistant steels, such as High Speed Steel (HSS) and Stainless Steel (SS) respectively. Because the white steel chisel did not offer a challenge to them, they got the job done incredibly quickly, before they could dish to a significant degree. So while they may feel soft, and are comparatively soft, they might not be able to effectively resist dishing ,like the much harder ceramic type stones, but they are able to ward off dishing by getting the job done fast.
Another fly in the ointment is the King Hyper. While it sits solidly on the right side of the graph, the amount of observed dishing and follow up strokes is quite low. Why is that? Again, there’s a logical explanation.
The King Hyper is made of similar stuff as the hard, ceramic stones but in a softer binder so it does ‘spend’ itself to get the work done quickly. However, because the abrasive is quite tough and high quality, what’s being shed and left on the stone is still working very hard and not ‘spent’ as it might be if the abrasive used was less durable. So while the stone itself might be dished, the slurry is doing just as much as the abrasive still on the stone. A curious observation, and while it might not sound so impressive here and now, the implications are very interesting, especially for some of you out there reading this.
The King Deluxe lives up to its reputation of being soft and easily dished. No surprise there. The Sigma Oribest however fared very poorly, and the reason is that it’s of the same intention as the King Neo and Sigma Select II, but the binder is soft, maybe a little too soft. This does help it deal with very tough, hard steels but when pushed beyond its limits, it can’t keep up. A good stone if you need something that will work with tough steel, just don’t push it too hard, it will bite back.

If you prefer a stone that “will not dish,” stick to the stones on left side of the graph. If you prefer to get things done quickly, stick to the stones on the right. If none of this is important to you, throw a dart and pick the one it lands on.

Thanks again for reading, https://www.toolsfromjapan.com/wordpress/?p=756

[Greg Parrish]

Wow, thanks. Wealth of info. I bookmarked that page. Lots to read there.

As mentioned above I went ahead and ordered a starter set to get me practicing.

This in 3,000 / 10,000: https://www.lie-nielsen.com/product/...nes-?node=4203

This diamond plate from Trend in 300 b 1,000: https://www.trend-uk.com/en/US/produ...ublesided.html


And this honing / lap fluid called Honeright Gold: https://www.amazon.com/STN-HRG250-Sh.../dp/B00F5XTWL0




that gives me a way to flatten the water stone and it gives me two mediums to work with and grits from 1,000 to 10,000. I’ll add on from here as needed as I go and learn more.

PS - I have a leather strop I picked up at woodcraft last month with an intermediate starter set of pfeil carving chisels. Forgot about it till now.

[Brandon Speaks]

There is no right or magic answer. Just remember the options available 20, 50, or 100 years ago. I like DMT diamond for some tasks, sand paper for others, and as much as I didnt want to like it I use a 6k grit water stone for others. The one items I will swear by is a strop for final polishing, I use pinewood forge strop and white gold honing compound, but there are many others that are good.

To be honest I really believe you can do a lot with a little in sharpening, and technique matters more than medium. I am no guro though

[Luke Dupont]

To be honest I really believe you can do a lot with a little in sharpening, and technique matters more than medium. I am no guro though

For fun, I like trying out different sharpening media, and I have to agree.

I even picked up a few random stones near a river, flattened them, and while they cut slowly, they managed to put a very nice edge on a knife.

Also had surprisingly good results with a particular $1 stone that I picked up at daiso, which cut way finer than its rated grit, but left a good edge. Could easily be used for all around general sharpening, though.

Granted, I don't use these to sharpen anything as I have better options. But it just goes to show that just about anything works.

Also, I second the strop advice. I find it the best / easiest / most cost efficient alternative to a finish stone. You can go straight from a very coarse stone such as an India or diamond stone to a strop loaded with chromium oxide.

[Greg Parrish]

I looked and the strop I picked up last month with my pfeil carvers is a flexcut knife strop like this: https://www.flexcut.com/home/product...ut-knife-strop

that going to work okay on chisels and planes too?

[Luke Dupont]

I looked and the strop I picked up last month with my pfeil carvers is a flexcut knife strop like this: https://www.flexcut.com/home/product...ut-knife-strop

that going to work okay on chisels and planes too?

As long as it has a hard backing to keep it from flexing too much it will work just fine. I generally just buy leather scraps and glue them to a piece of wood.