Not impressed with new SawStop ICS

[Joe Jensen]

The original poster must have just read the marketing collateral that calls it Industrial. Lots of examples of tool labeled industrial that are not. If you read the manual, the Sawstop ICS sets itself apart from Unisaws and PM66 saws in that it has blade heel adjustment. With the Uni and PM66 and all other 10" cabinet saws that I am aware of you cannot remove blade heel by adjusting. You can only average the error with shims. With the Sawstop ICS that is adjustable. Also if you compare the trunions there is no comparison. The Sawstop is much more advanced, and you can adjust away any machining error during manufacturing. With the other cabinet saws you cannot. The sawstop ICS has a much larger table. Lastly, the Sawstop ICS weights more than the Unisaw, PM66, and PM2000. About 100 lbs more. Is it a true industrial duty saw, of course not. Is it another mediocre Asian cabinet saw? It is Asian but it stands above the US made Unisaw and the US made PM66. I've owned all three.

This would be an industrial cabinet saw.
http://www.northfieldwoodworking.com/tablesaws/4saw.htm

[Simon MacGowen]

Is it another mediocre Asian cabinet saw? It is Asian but it stands above the US made Unisaw and the US made PM66. I've owned all three.

Haha. You fell into Martin's trap who by the way knows about all the weaknesses of the SawStop though he can't point them out one by one. I can, because I have used the SS since the first generation of ICS (the PCS were released later). Try asking him which Asian cabinet saw that is not mediocre, or which Asian (or US) cabinet saw has a better user manual!

Simon

[Martin Wasner]

who by the way knows about all the weaknesses of the SawStop though he can't point them out one by one.

-Light trunnion
-Small bearings
-Belt drive, though tough to escape on a 10" saw
-Cheap motor
-Cheap switch
-Cheap starter
-Light stamped base
-Prone to mis-fires (though they do replace)
-Wierd grind on the table top (needs more texture to make it slippery. Looks nice, but not very functional)
-Light duty miter gauge slots
-Square miter gauge slots instead of proper dovetailed slots

I do like the fence though, it's one of my favorites of the T-lock variety.

[Pat Barry]

-Light trunnion
-Small bearings
-Belt drive, though tough to escape on a 10" saw
-Cheap motor
-Cheap switch
-Cheap starter
-Light stamped base
-Prone to mis-fires (though they do replace)
-Wierd grind on the table top (needs more texture to make it slippery. Looks nice, but not very functional)
-Light duty miter gauge slots
-Square miter gauge slots instead of proper dovetailed slots

I do like the fence though, it's one of my favorites of the T-lock variety.

I've not seen dovetailed miter gauge slots. Are they common? Not sure that I would like them. Whats the benefit?

[Simon MacGowen]

-Light trunnion
-Small bearings
-Belt drive, though tough to escape on a 10" saw
-Cheap motor
-Cheap switch
-Cheap starter
-Light stamped base
-Prone to mis-fires (though they do replace)
-Wierd grind on the table top (needs more texture to make it slippery. Looks nice, but not very functional)
-Light duty miter gauge slots
-Square miter gauge slots instead of proper dovetailed slots

I do like the fence though, it's one of my favorites of the T-lock variety.

You are listing out the basic components of any cabinet saw and then add an adjective in front of them. You really have disappointed me, Martin. I thought you would have at least pointed out these:

-Poor plywood used for the fence (in the 1st gen. of ICS -- 12 or 13 years ago)
-Pricey machine when compared to other cabinet saws
-Poor right-angled dust chute design for the overarm dust collection
-Industrial mobile base (the best money can buy for a cabinet saw) not a standard feature for the PCS
-Dust collection blade guard not a standard feature for the PCS.

I don't blame you. Some have done even worse after they saw just a few hot-dog demos (not even in person) and proclaimed themselves experts in the saw. Am I a SS expert?

Yes, if over 10 years of using the saws (ICS and PCS) was the criterion.
No, if the criterion was that I had to trigger one brake activation or more.

Simon

[Martin Wasner]

Our needs are different. You're an evangelist, I'm an entrepreneur. The four things you list are simple to fix or don't matter, (like price), and not systemic like my list.

You're not an expert, you're a garage warrior spouting your illusion of superiority because you've latched onto something.

[Simon MacGowen]

Our needs are different. You're an evangelist, I'm an entrepreneur. The four things you list are simple to fix or don't matter, (like price), and not systemic like my list.

Must bite my tongue this time...so no one could point the finger at me if and when this (sawstop) thread is locked, moved or whatever!

Simon

[Martin Wasner]

I've not seen dovetailed miter gauge slots. Are they common? Not sure that I would like them. Whats the benefit?

Common on older saws. I don't know they're better, but both of mine are smoother and have a tighter tolerance than the other tablesaws in the shop.

[jack forsberg]

CertainlyThe rise and fall mechanism is a POS Subject to misalignment and included in the standards of their manual are not to be adjusted unless they are out by .006” . Trunonns do appear to be weak when compared to others in this class with very small span placement of bolts on the tin base but what appears to be the most weakest is the central casting that is generally Slung between the trunnions is bolted together with pipe and bolts. Obviously this is a departure from the traditional one piece casting which would never and I was never in need of adjusting.The rack and Pinion rise and fall looks rather flimsy and is subject the shock of the braking system . When out of alignment rise and fall adjustments need to be made or the saw blade does not run parallel to the slot in any given height position. It would appear to me that they needed such a mechanism to allow the blade to slam down below the table. they’ve had the insight to give her access panel to this week mechanism to which they called robust. Anybody who knows anything knows that the pipe type Rise and fall are subject to wear Because of the lack of bearing surface. They have been implemented on cheap shapers for years and other quite flimsy gear. There appears to be no provision for ware in the Critical component

[Van Huskey]

Must bite my tongue this time...

Simon

Let's try to refocus on the OP and see it through that lens. The OP didn't feel the ISC measures up to an industrial saw. This is a legitimate point mainly because the ICS is really not what many would consider an industrial saw along with ANY 10" saw no matter how well it is built or made. There is one lighter weight (as noted) industrial cabinet saw still made, the Northfield #4 which weighs in about 3 times as heavy as the ICS. The heft of the build and the quality of the grinding is superior to the ICS, it is simply in a different class and outside a post like the OP's people would rarely compare them. Also, no one in this thread has argued the ICS isn't in the top end of the 10" cabinet saws available now. However, I think it is reasonably objective to say the entire class of saws is mediocre compared to the much heavier cabinet saws or if you broaden the comparison sliders like Martin, but they are simply in a COMPLETELY different price class. Trying to compare the ICS to real industrial saws actually does it a disservice considering it is priced multiple times less.

[johnny means]

Is being belt driven weakness in a table saw?

[David Kumm]

Direct drive machines tend to be very smooth and incorporating the spindle and rotor together with large bearings make for a bulletproof design providing the motor quality is as good as the rest of the machine. Tradeoff is reduced depth of cut and speed is limited to motor rpm. On jointers and planers this compensated for with large diameter heads. Dovetailed slots were used more in European machinery and demanded precise grinding as those of us who have tried sliding dovetails can attest to. US machinery generally used T slots on table saws. A tad more forgiving although US machinery tended to be very precise in machining their direct drive spindles. The large bearings were placed far apart for strength and it was seldom that self aligning bearings were needed to correct faulty machining.

Machine guys who are woodworkers look at machines differently than woodworkers who mainly use machines to work wood. I have a similar disconnect when I watch videos reviewing new cars. Seems like more time and credit is given to how the electronics integrate and how ergonomic the buttons and touch screens work than how the suspension balances ride vs handling, or how the transmission and engine deliver power across the rpm range, not to mention the actual design plusses and minusses of the engine and transmission design and build. Doesn't mean one side is right and the other wrong, just that priorities are different. Dave

[Simon MacGowen]

Trying to compare the ICS to real industrial saws actually does it a disservice considering it is priced multiple times less.

The truth of the matter is that (anyone following the SS discussions in this or other forums knows it) it is not about comparing the SS against any saws. The comparisons are a disguise. A smokescreen. The SawStop, given its success, is a stick in the eye to some, who, by the way, have never owned, meaningfully used, or operated a SawStop.

They are very good at pointing out the cosmetic improvements that they think SawStop can or should make, while conveniently ignoring their complaints about SawStop's prices. They expect SawStop to make the saws better and at the same time make the prices lower! Failing that...it is a mediocre saw.

They will not produce one shed of field evidence on how the current generations of SawStop are underperforming for what are marketed for.

No, even if the SawStop is compared to a contractor saw, a job site saw or, well, a circular saw, they will still come to the same conclusion!

Simon

[Martin Wasner]

Is being belt driven weakness in a table saw?

Adds vibration, belts use power. It's not the end of the world, but direct drive is much smoother.

[Van Huskey]

The truth of the matter is that (anyone following the SS discussions in this or other forums knows it) it is not about comparing the SS against any saws. The comparisons are a disguise. A smokescreen. The SawStop, given its success, is a stick in the eye to some, who, by the way, have never owned, meaningfully used, or operated a SawStop.

They are very good at pointing out the cosmetic improvements that they think SawStop can or should make, while conveniently ignoring their complaints about SawStop's prices. They expect SawStop to make the saws better and at the same time make the prices lower! Failing that...it is a mediocre saw.

They will not produce one shed of field evidence on how the current generations of SawStop are underperforming for what are marketed for.

No, even if the SawStop is compared to a contractor saw, a job site saw or, well, a circular saw, they will still come to the same conclusion!

Simon

Let's assume for a moment the OP did indeed drop some bait and attempt to troll, it is possible. The problem is you swallowed the hook. When you start defending the ICS against machines that weigh 3-5 times as much and cost (or would cost) 3-5 times (or more) as much it puts you in the same category as the guy saying his site saw is built better than an ICS. The ICS acquits itself very well against every Asian and a lot of the older American light-duty cabinet saws, that's an argument worth making, trying to compare it to the build quality of a true industrial saw is like throwing your flyweight contender in with Ali, Forman or Tyson in their prime, there is a reason there are weight classes.

I am sure I come across as a zealot sometimes but I hope I am objective enough to see when the object of my affection is simply outclassed.