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Thread: Not impressed with new SawStop ICS

  1. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Van Huskey View Post
    Let's assume for a moment the OP did indeed drop some bait and attempt to troll, it is possible.
    No, my last post is not about the OP's remark. He is legit as the table is indeed pine stuff; some, as I pointed out, replaced it with a router table.

    Simon

  2. #47
    Saw stop Industrial cabinet saw. This is a 10 inch blade???

    I’d rather buy a Hammer Slider any day the week for $1000 more.

    I personally Think any industrial machine should have a motor that weighs less than 10% of the whole machine weight if it is considered freestanding.

    I personally don’t like machines that do not have shimable surfaces (or adjustable Gibbs).

    People will buy consumables. Saw stop is a consumable IMO.

    If you want USED industrial, buy a Northfield #4, pk, pp, tannewitz, Oliver, Robinson ETE or ETZ or Stenner...
    NEW, Hammer I would consider consumer/industrial.

    Felder, Format, Martin, Altendorf... and a few others these are real industrial. Sorry Grizzly doesn’t make it!

    The top-of-the-line cabinet builders Fixture makers, pattern makers are not using saw stop.

    Stop saws are used primarily by training educational institutions to prevent mishaps and insurance reduction. This is like forcing or implementing every educational driving instructor to purchase a Tesla.
    Last edited by Matt Mattingley; 08-04-2018 at 1:06 AM.

  3. #48
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    Did sawstop ever do anything to improve the fence faces? The first generation formica over plywood were terrible.

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Martin Wasner View Post
    Adds vibration, belts use power. It's not the end of the world, but direct drive is much smoother.
    Oh you have got to be kidding me...... Tried to refrain from posting again. Are you serious? Use a 5 hp motor in direct drive you will lose 2 inches of cut capacity. A V belt will suck up some power but a multi groove v, not a lot. I can put a penny on edge on my ICS, start the saw, cut a full sheet of 3/4" cabinet plywood in half, alone, turn the saw off, and the penny will still be on edge. You?

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyle Iwamoto View Post
    Use a 5 hp motor in direct drive you will lose 2 inches of cut capacity.
    That's why the big industrial saws use 18" blades which gives ~2" more DOC at 0* than an ICS, it also gives you ~45% more teeth cuts per unit of time. DMD machines do run smoother than the same machine with belt drive and they also have the benefit of higher ABEC bearings over the ICS and at least a 1/2 ton more mass to damp vibrations. The extension tables alone on these saws can weigh nearly as much as an ICS itself, which I think would have met the OP's expectations.

    I just don't get the desire to argue the ICS against big industrial saws, it is like arguing ones F350 is built more robust than Kenworth T680, but it doesn't mean the F350 is poorly built for its class. Why is it even a discussion when we are talking about a $4K saw compared to saws that run 20-45 grand new? If you want to talk manuals or safety it is one thing but the robustness of build is so objective and so far apart it makes no sense to argue and build quality of "industrial" saws is the genesis of the thread. I completely understand why SS owners get defensive but this line of argument is the embodiment of quixotic.
    Of all the laws Brandolini's may be the most universally true.

    Deep thought for the day:

    Your bandsaw weighs more when you leave the spring compressed instead of relieving the tension.

  6. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyle Iwamoto View Post
    Oh you have got to be kidding me...... Tried to refrain from posting again. Are you serious? Use a 5 hp motor in direct drive you will lose 2 inches of cut capacity. A V belt will suck up some power but a multi groove v, not a lot. I can put a penny on edge on my ICS, start the saw, cut a full sheet of 3/4" cabinet plywood in half, alone, turn the saw off, and the penny will still be on edge. You?
    I take it you've never used a direct drive saw either?

  7. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyle Iwamoto View Post
    You?
    Apparently the answer is yes. Even on a tired, 80 year old, abused and in semi rough shape lighter built saw like a Type U, I can do that. Which still probably weighs around double that of a Sawstop.

    There is some roughness in the wind down at about thirty seconds after I hit the power off button, the last minute of wind down is smooth. It must be some sort of harmonic in the blade. You can see it jello-ing the video a bit. My #4 is much smoother than this saw, but I don't feel like pulling the dado stack out and loading a blade to do the same exact thing.

    How long is the wind down on a Sawstop?



  8. #53
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    This whole thread is a bit absurd. It should be obvious to anyone old enough to use a table saw that he word "industrial" in the Sawstop's name is marketing babble. "Industrial Cabinet Saw" after all is, if taken as a literal description, an oxymoron. Industrial-scale wood cutting isn't done on 10" cabinet saws.

    The ICS is a 10" cabinet saw. It's toward the top end of that category in both quality and price. It's a nice saw for people whose woodworking needs are satisfied by the cabinet saw form factor, 10" blade size, and relatively (compared to a factory's needs) low duty cycle. Yes it has some faults, even when considered as a 10" cabinet saw, but it's not junk just because it isn't something that it doesn't seriously claim to be. The same machine can look like a toy in a factory line, and be a top-of-the-line fit for an artisan or home shop.

    Comparing a Sawstop to an 18", 2500 lb, direct drive saw is like comparing your home computer to the ones I use at work to do genomic sequencing. Yes, they at some level are the same thing, but at any depth of analysis, they don't belong in a head to head comparison.

  9. #54
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    Buying new...what would the original poster expect to pay for a new Industrial class tablesaw?
    Bob C

  10. #55
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    The relevance to this comparison is the ability ( sensing tech aside ) to acquire the industrial 20K machine for much less than the cost of the new 10". Not for everyone but economics now are compelling if solving a few problems doesn't daunt someone. A vfd, pallet jack, ability to learn a little about mechanics, bearings and wiring and you are good to go. I have a Rockwell 12 which is a much heavier build than any 10", four belts, huge internals, and it is smooth and gives a great cut. It sits in the corner because my old direct drive saws get all the use. There is something about those old industrial direct drive machines that is difficult to describe, but you know when you use it that life is good. Dave

    PS: And most have riving knives

  11. #56
    direct drive

    jack
    English machines

  12. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by jim mills View Post
    Did sawstop ever do anything to improve the fence faces? The first generation formica over plywood were terrible.
    That problem has been fixed.

    Simon

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Kumm View Post
    The relevance to this comparison is the ability ( sensing tech aside ) to acquire the industrial 20K machine for much less than the cost of the new 10".
    I agree 100% that discussion/argument about the subjective side (like value) makes perfect sense. Even the safety vs convenience discussion is valid when set against something like the unusual case of someone that for whatever reason changes from a 10" blade to a dado stack 10 times a day.

    In the end, this is just a discussion born of semantics, SS needed model designations when they introduced the smaller saw and either by whim or exhaustive research (or likely something in between) settled on Professional and Industrial the latter being somewhat optimistic.
    Of all the laws Brandolini's may be the most universally true.

    Deep thought for the day:

    Your bandsaw weighs more when you leave the spring compressed instead of relieving the tension.

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon MacGowen View Post
    That problem has been fixed.

    Simon
    Maybe, sort of. My (almost new) PCS fence face is not perfectly flat. Has a couple of variance spots as you run an indicator along it. Overall, though, it is straight and I haven't noticed any problems.

  15. #60
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    I seldom disagree with Matt but consider Hammer to be consumer, Felder 700 high consumer, Felder 900 entry industrial, and Format middle industrial. Martin, Altendorf, Hoffmann, and maybe Panhans high industrial. Machines are built more lightly now as their electronics have a lifespan and there is little incentive to build anything that will last over 20 years. Dave

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