Limiter shaper tooling (MAN) discussion

[Mark Bolton]

Mark, Good info on the DC40. I've got one showing up next week since I stole the feeder off of my spare shaper that we use for odd ball stuff to put it on a tablesaw, now dedicated to cutting the groove for bottoms in drawer parts.

What really ticks me off is I ordered two new Steff feeders right after the DC feeders came out. I didn't know about them yet.

I disagree with not being money well spent when it comes to a dedicated setup. Frequently I've had to use a slower feed rate than either what I felt was correct, or the chip load calculations dictated. Being able to fine tune that is money well spent in the long run in my opinion.

I guess the speed issue is true in that regard maybe more do pertaining to the high dollar smart stand. But yeah we have the same problem with our 4 speed feeders. Seems like your always just a shade too fast or a shade too slow with any gear arrangement or speed.

[Mel Fulks]

While the finger kit would be nice, I think the breakthrough fence is even better in some situations as it offers more support (not much difference to be fair) and gives you zero clearance which can help.

That was an obvious truth for a long time. We made simple dedicated fences for things like thick nosed sill returns and lots
of other stuff . And anyone whose laziness made them ruin one was eliminated. I think one of the most useful fences is
one about 10 inches tall and long enough to be clamped diagonaly. Allows you to see "the roof is the limit" as the feeder
bar will not be an obstacle. You can gang cut decorative fence pickets, large lock edge mitres.

[brent stanley]

That was an obvious truth for a long time. We made simple dedicated fences for things like thick nosed sill returns and lots
of other stuff . And anyone whose laziness made them ruin one was eliminated. I think one of the most useful fences is
one about 10 inches tall and long enough to be clamped diagonaly. Allows you to see "the roof is the limit" as the feeder
bar will not be an obstacle. You can gang cut decorative fence pickets, large lock edge mitres.

Wish there was a "like" button on SMC, because this is great. We often get stuck with thinking we NEED to use the factory fence when a homemade one like this enables positioning anywhere. Super handy for doing lock edge work like you say. You just have to secure it well enough to the table that it won't move if you're doing something that wants a fair amount of pressure from your feeder.

B

[Van Huskey]

That would be one more that I'd even expect.

Back when I got my first shaper (never having used one before) I poured over old threads here and on woodweb. There is a lot of good information in the archives.

At first I was going to say zero but then remembered woodweb that I hate the format of so never visit and there is also a lot of bigger machine knowledge on owwm. But the in the more mainstream forums the thread would die a slow painful death working its way off the first page.

[Mel Fulks]

Yeah,you need a feeder, but for most manual feeding a spring hold down can and should be used. I worked a few years
before I ever saw an electric feeder. And in that time I never saw anything done without a spring hold down. Some were
quite basic but others were deluxe with beefy Acme thread adjustment. I suggest anyone saving for an electric feeder ,at least rig up some type of spring hold down.

[Jared Sankovich]

I'd be curious if there was anyone here with a shaper that does not have a feeder as well. (that uses a shaper even semi regularly)

[Joe Calhoon]

The first shaper I owned was the baby Delta in 1976. I made cabinet doors for a few years with that. No feeder and no DC. Did not know feeders existed till I had my second shaper the Delta HD. I remember the spring hold downs and shop made feather boards. Don’t miss that at all. Feeder makes a world of difference. I like to make some test cuts hand feeding just to test cutter sharpness.

the Aigner overhead guard works well for the times you need to hand feed like for small raised panels. They are also nice to close the cutter in when using a sliding table or sled.
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[Joe Calhoon]

Here is a shop made fence that works quicker than the Felder add on bars. It will work on wood, and metal fence plates and also with the Aigner fence. We use it for smaller diameter cutters when the Aigner fingers are too thick.

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[Joe Calhoon]

Here is a zero clearance fence made the same way to attach to the fence jaws for quick setup. We have several of these made of wood but this is the most used to close in the opening of a 8” cutter used for wing cuts on windows. This one is also made to remove 1mm from the edge.
We used to motor the fence back to cut these but a little dangerous and hard on the cutters so now I get the opening close with a jig saw and back in the last part. It does not need to be perfect zero.

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[Rod Sheridan]

Let me go on record saying we need more shaper threads, they usually turn out to be some of the most insightful. I'll add a shout out to the SMC community as well, ask this question on pretty much any other forum except maybe 2 and you would get crickets.

Very true, we're lucky here with the knowledge, including your frequent band saw posts.

At the Felder seminars I always mention that for versatility and capabilities the band saw and shaper are my most important machine, as well as a J/P.

Everyone is surprised at the band saw seminars that the band saw can both break down large rough material, and make perfect fitting bridle joints as well. The shaper seminars are eye openers as well, as the participants get to use one with a stock feeder and see how fast, accurate and versatile the shaper is.

By the way, as a Moto Guzzi lover, I presume you're talking about Ducati with the 5,328 mile listing? Love Ducatis, own BMW's, Norton and a James, always lusted after a 1978 Duc 900SS......................Rod.

[Mel Fulks]

The modern stuff is fine for all modern stuff, but I haven't seen anything here that could be used for stair easings and such. But a spring hold down is just right. Yes ,there isn't a lot of that work around. But there is enough for anyone who
can and will do it.

[Mark Bolton]

Every time I hear one of these "I grew up running hand fed blah blah blah" reminds me of things like putting up hay when youve got several generations of people in the hay field and one talks about putting up hay with a scythe and sled, dragging it in with a sled, stacking it around a pole, another always used a sickle bar mower maybe drawn by a team or behind a tractor, the youngsters are running a haybine or a disc mower or discbine and then you really get in the weeds when the crap breaks out about square bales or round bales.

The simple fact of the matter is if you grew up hand feeding with feather/pressure boards you need your head examined if you in any way shape or for think that the "youngsters" or those "coming up" are in any way challenged by their collosally smart advantage over you with their new fangled feeders.

We still do, or perhaps I should say "I" still do, quite a bit of hand feeding. The reason I dont have employees hand feed is because I cant afford the comp. And if my insurance agent or the OSHA inspector walked in, whether they knew a thing about nothing, they would have a fit. In fact if I were to ever have had my best employee standing there with a sled feeding material by hand I would be a little un-nerved and tentative.

Feeders are simply a no brainer. They are smarter, they are safer, they are faster, they reduce operator fatigue by a factor of 100, cut quality is 1000% better, tooling life (cost, resharpening cost) is through the roof, production is way up.

Anyone talking about the good graces of coming up hand feeding in this day and age needs their head examined. You may well have a great grasp of the physics of whats going on with the tool but the simple fact of the matter is the vast majority of us trying to hire people on a daily basis will likely never in our careers have the luxury of an individual who is truely interested in absorbing the physics and minuscia of subtleties of setting up a hand fed operation. You need, and the hobbyist running a shaper needs, to be able to setup a smart operation where you put a part against the fence, engage the feed wheels, and it works.

Arguing in favor of the days of old is a fools errand. I have guys in my shop on occasion that tell endless stories of panel raising by hand and having parts fly across the shop, a piece of gnarly grain sending a corner of a panel flying for 75 feet. I personally couldnt afford the liability to reproduce that shop today.

I wouldnt trade a feeder fed operation for a hand fed operation with featherboards and pressure hold downs for a million bucks.

[brent stanley]

The modern stuff is fine for all modern stuff, but I haven't seen anything here that could be used for stair easings and such. But a spring hold down is just right. Yes ,there isn't a lot of that work around. But there is enough for anyone who
can and will do it.

Hi Mel, do you feel that the tooling doesn't permit this type of work, or that feeders can't be adapted to do this?

b

[Mel Fulks]

Brent ,I was mainly referring to safe procedures. I've used feeders to run circular and elliptical casings on edge. Two feeder wheels for circles with guide "shoes" tacked to the fence for tracking. One wheel directly over cutting head for elliptical stuff, with one hand holding the casing end to help keep the bottom work edge directly under center of cutter. For something like stair rail easings ,where the radius is too small to avoid the work being blocked by the wheel hubs not in use I guess one could make an 'axal extender' to give the work piece an unblocked path. But even the slowest
speed on some of the feeders might be too fast for an easing that already has some work in it like glue up ,band sawing ,sanding the bottom , running a chanel for a baluster; (sometimes the customer doesn't want the channel) and setting
up the shaper to run the usually serpentine top. The spring hold down ,fitted with a wooden shoe works well for all the shaping.

[Mel Fulks]

Just remembered that I didn't answer the tooling question. We always used the old style 3 " diameter "collars" since they
avoid the profile distortion due to small work radius. But some profiles probably work okay with larger diameter heads.