Limiter shaper tooling (MAN) discussion

[brent stanley]

Just remembered that I didn't answer the tooling question. We always used the old style 3 " diameter "collars" since they
avoid the profile distortion due to small work radius. But some profiles probably work okay with larger diameter heads.

Interesting!

I personally can see how feeders can limit quality in some instances. You can do all the chip loading calculations you want, and go about an operation according to all the "rules" you want, but wood's a product of Mother Nature, and as we all know, Mother Nature has a habit of humbling us. Sometimes wood just won't behave like the books say it should. I think the ability to change feed speed instantly (or pull the stock out of the cutters to regroup) as you hear and feel the cutters starting to tear out or otherwise would be hard to emulate with a feeder. I changed to a 3ph feeder with one of Jack's vector drive VFDs so I can just crank the dial back and slow down the feed if I hear tear-out or something. You're relying on your ears because your hands aren't on the stock, but I think it will help.

[Mike Cutler]

Every time I hear one of these "I grew up running hand fed blah blah blah" reminds me of things like putting up hay when youve got several generations of people in the hay field and one talks about putting up hay with a scythe and sled, dragging it in with a sled, stacking it around a pole, another always used a sickle bar mower maybe drawn by a team or behind a tractor, the youngsters are running a haybine or a disc mower or discbine and then you really get in the weeds when the crap breaks out about square bales or round bales.

That people grew up in a different era doesn't really mean anything. It just means that we learned a different way, that we are not uncomfortable with. Doesn't make it right, or wrong. Safe, or unsafe. It's just what it is, or was.
Square bales suck. That's 700lbs that is just a pain to move about, once it comes off the tractor.

The simple fact of the matter is if you grew up hand feeding with feather/pressure boards you need your head examined if you in any way shape or for think that the "youngsters" or those "coming up" are in any way challenged by their collosally smart advantage over you with their new fangled feeders.

I don't think we need our heads examined, at least not for that reason. Machines changed for a few reasons, and not least among them is that people operating them were getting hurt, and or dying. That's a fact that cannot be disputed. Making a machine, or process, safer should always be a priority.

We still do, or perhaps I should say "I" still do, quite a bit of hand feeding. The reason I dont have employees hand feed is because I cant afford the comp. And if my insurance agent or the OSHA inspector walked in, whether they knew a thing about nothing, they would have a fit. In fact if I were to ever have had my best employee standing there with a sled feeding material by hand I would be a little un-nerved and tentative.

Your needs to hand feed are the same as anyone else. Sometimes the material doesn't accommodate being power fed.

Feeders are simply a no brainer. They are smarter, they are safer, they are faster, they reduce operator fatigue by a factor of 100, cut quality is 1000% better, tooling life (cost, resharpening cost) is through the roof, production is way up.
No dispute there. An engineered safety solution, is always better than a safety practice.

Anyone talking about the good graces of coming up hand feeding in this day and age needs their head examined. You may well have a great grasp of the physics of whats going on with the tool but the simple fact of the matter is the vast majority of us trying to hire people on a daily basis will likely never in our careers have the luxury of an individual who is truely interested in absorbing the physics and minuscia of subtleties of setting up a hand fed operation. You need, and the hobbyist running a shaper needs, to be able to setup a smart operation where you put a part against the fence, engage the feed wheels, and it works.
Sometimes the parts don't always fit up against a fence. Sleds, jigs, templates, etc, must be used.A shaper can be safely operated in absence of a power feeder, but the method will be much slower, and in the end more costly. In a production shop, such as yours, this is just not possible, and as you pointed out, the liability is too great.

Arguing in favor of the days of old is a fools errand. I have guys in my shop on occasion that tell endless stories of panel raising by hand and having parts fly across the shop, a piece of gnarly grain sending a corner of a panel flying for 75 feet. I personally couldn't afford the liability to reproduce that shop today.

I wouldnt trade a feeder fed operation for a hand fed operation with featherboards and pressure hold downs for a million bucks.
As far as a production shop? Definitely a powered fed operation wins hands down.

Mark
The thrust of the discussion is for a person working alone.A production operation, such as yours, has many different needs it must satisfy and balance to be successful. A guy working alone also needs a different process to be successful, whether hobbyist, or solo operation. My only argument would be that a shaper can be manually operated just as safely, or unsafely, as any other machine in the work shop. It doesn't have to be exclusively limited to power fed operation only.
People will either choose to work safely or not.

[Mark Bolton]

It doesn't have to be exclusively limited to power fed operation only

Never an argument there. No one is going to disagree with Mel's point that stair easings and so on are not going to work out too well with a feeder. The point of my response is that in any of these conversations there is always that throw back to hand feeding rebates, moldings, cope and stick, raised panels (even arched), radius work, and its of course true. They can all be hand fed, some safer than others, and if you have no budget for a feeder and plenty of time thats great. But production shop or not, safety through the roof, operator fatigue (a huge huge one in any book) is reduced to low single digits, cut quality and tooling life are through the roof, and throughput is through the roof.

I just had a friend in the shop over the weekend running some parts for some tables he wanted to make. Feeder on the table saw, feeders on the shapers, and the guy is running around like a kid in a candy store at the throughput, the extreme lack of fear and concern feeding material across a sharp-spinny-thing regardless of guarding and hold-downs, the fact that you are basically 2 grits aways from a finish ready surface no burning from starts and stop/repositioning your hands, reaching for the push stick, and the fact that at the end of the day your not physically whipped.

Its no news that any operation can be hand fed. But to harken back to learning on the old stuff as just as good just doesnt make any sense in the days of outrageously priced sawstops and festool equipment.

Again, I have sat in hay fields listening to the old timers ride down the new guys with their mowers that will cut hay at 30MPH that they are this and they are that. Then the old timer hauls off and buys a disc mower and is mowing faster and safer than he ever has in his 60-80 years and bragging about the hours of free time he now has to weed his garden or enjoy his family. Its actually a joy to watch.

Thankfully I dont have the experience of doing all this stuff old school. The knowledge is great to absorb and read about, but Im thankful to have missed out on the experience first hand. ;-)

[mark mcfarlane]

IMG_3614.jpgIMG_3611.jpgIMG_3619.jpgIMG_3615.jpg

Someone asked me to post some pictures of the articulating stock feeder arm for my Minimax CU300, so here are a few along with a pic of the Whitehill insert head that arrived yesterday. The articulating arm is from Minimax. The Whitehill combo head has the rebate knives installed but has blanks where the profile / limiter blades normally go.

A quick test of a rebate in 3/4 birch plywood had excellent results, actually better than expected, and much, much better than using the router table.

Thanks again everyone for the help in deciding what to purchase. Now I need to drive 1.5 hours each way to pick up some soft maple and MDF and build some new painted shaker cabinet doors for the laundry room.

[David Kumm]

Arm is very similar to the old Knapp style. Dave

[Mark Bolton]

Wow, Image number four is a full on freaky amount of compound leverage and weight. What a cool photograph.

[Martin Wasner]

Wow, Image number four is a full on freaky amount of compound leverage and weight. What a cool photograph.

There's a whole bunch of stuff going on there.

[Van Huskey]

There's a whole bunch of stuff going on there.

The main thing I see is the horrible faux pas of blotting out a bandsaw in a shop picture.

[mark mcfarlane]

The main thing I see is the horrible faux pas of blotting out a bandsaw in a shop picture.

Sorry Van, I didn't intend to disrespect the bandsaw.

[Van Huskey]

Sorry Van, I didn't intend to disrespect the bandsaw.

You have to be careful, especially the Italian ones can be a jealous mistress.