Limiter shaper tooling (MAN) discussion

[Warren Lake]

you could also make mortise and tennon using your table saw and delay your purchase to think about it. Better door anyway especially that 50 inch one.

[brent stanley]

If you're ok with it, you don't neeeed limiters with every profile. They can just send you the cutters. Remember, with the combi head you're also buying a fully featured, shear cut rebate block which you'll want some day anyway.

They must have to make that block for you. I guess they're out of their stock pile.

There are grinding services that people can recommend. You could just buy a stack of blanks, and have a profile ground for you when you need it. Might be faster, I Don't know.

B

[Jared Sankovich]

I'm rethinking the Whitehall head. I corresponded with them today, its 6-7 days before they can ship, and another week for me to receive the package, and $53 to ship. That's a total of $362 for the insert head with a single T&G profile of knives/limiters.

I've asked what the shipping is for a set of knives/limiters by themselves. If it's over $10 I may go a different way. Requiring both knives and limiters for every profile, then adding international shipping and the delay, makes getting new profiles quite expensive for a hobby shop. I need to build 8 cabinet doors now, maybe 30-40 more of the same T&G profile in the next few years, then I'm done with building cabinet doors.

Since I bought a power feeder, I'm thinking (perhaps incorrectly) that I don't need a MAN head with limiters. Or maybe I should bite the bullet and get the Whitehall set. The money itself isn't a deal breaker, but there is a belt sander somewhere calling my name, and money is money...

Amana has a set of carbide T&G heads with an adjustable groove width that meets my immediate needs, and I can have them in a few days. The adjustable groove seems like a helpful feature. I'd still end up eventually buying a 40mm insert head, but probably one from Amana without limiters.

Anyway, that's what I'm thinking today, tomorrow may be different.... This 'first shaper head' decision has been more of a struggle than I expected.

Getting a grasp on shaper tooling from just reading on the internet can be very frustrating.

I would get the amana t&g set and a standard 40*100 head. You may still want the Whitehill block in the future and you could always get it if you feel the other heads were limited in what you wanted to do.

I don't have a limiter head and wouldn't but one for that reason alone.

[brent stanley]

I'm rethinking the Whitehall head. I corresponded with them today, its 6-7 days before they can ship, and another week for me to receive the package, and $53 to ship. That's a total of $362 for the insert head with a single T&G profile of knives/limiters.

I've asked what the shipping is for a set of knives/limiters by themselves. If it's over $10 I may go a different way. Requiring both knives and limiters for every profile, then adding international shipping and the delay, makes getting new profiles quite expensive for a hobby shop. I need to build 8 cabinet doors now, maybe 30-40 more of the same T&G profile in the next few years, then I'm done with building cabinet doors.

Since I bought a power feeder, I'm thinking (perhaps incorrectly) that I don't need a MAN head with limiters. Or maybe I should bite the bullet and get the Whitehall set. The money itself isn't a deal breaker, but there is a belt sander somewhere calling my name, and money is money...

Amana has a set of carbide T&G heads with an adjustable groove width that meets my immediate needs, and I can have them in a few days. The adjustable groove seems like a helpful feature. I'd still end up eventually buying a 40mm insert head, but probably one from Amana without limiters.

Anyway, that's what I'm thinking today, tomorrow may be different.... This 'first shaper head' decision has been more of a struggle than I expected.

I guess the way I think of it is, if you're doing limited runs of things, you're probably better off not buying "one trick ponies" dedicated for that task. If you think you'll be done with the cabinet doors after this, then you'll be stuck with the dedicated $273 Amana T&G heads that you'll never use again. I suppose you could sell them afterwards and get some of your money back. Once you own a head that takes replaceable knives (Amana, CMT, Whitehill whatever), each short run project only costs you the price of the knives, and if the project is short run, HSS will certainly last. I asked Whitehill what run length people are getting from their steel and they said you could expect 1000m (3280ft) in softwood before sharpening. Even if you cut that in half for hardwood, that's plenty for hobby scale use.

You could get HSS T&G knives for a head that are custom ground for the panel material thickness you are using, or you could get off the shelf knives cheaper and modify the thickness of your panel on the back side to fit. If you have the combi head, you could use the rebate block to modify the panel thickness where it fits into the groove. Then you may well be done with those knives, but at least you don't have a lot of money invested in something that gathers dust on your shelf Instead you have a head sitting there that is ready for your next shaper project, whatever that may be.

I'm not a safety nut bar but I will say that MAN rated tooling is a regulatory requirement even for machines with power feeders in much of Europe and has been for a while. A power feeder won't shield you from everything if something goes wrong, that's why they are required. I will personally run non-MAN rated stuff occasionally with a power feeder, but I won't ask anyone else to.

[mark mcfarlane]

Thanks Warren, Jared, and Brent. I went ahead and paid for the Whitehall head this morning. The heads are in stock, the profile I ordered has a 2-3 day delay. Shipping for future separate profiles is around $6, which is reasonable.

Brent, I'm curious if you have tried just using knives without limiters on this head. I'm thinking it is possible that the wedge won't hold/fit properly if it doesn't have a chunk of metal on each side, depending on the depth of the wedge.

Thanks again everyone for you help. The DC40, MAN head and 'Rod's favorite Shaper book' are all on their way. I should have time to read the book before the MAN head arrives.

[mark mcfarlane]

.... If you have the combi head, you could use the rebate block to modify the panel thickness where it fits into the groove. ...

That's my plan, and actually the 'free rebate' feature is what tipped me in favor of the Whitehall combi head. Thank's Brent for your patience and for helping me think this through in public. I can now go forward and overthink whatever my next decision is . Being new to retirement has allowed me to spend way too much time pondering sh*t.

[brent stanley]

Thanks Warren, Jared, and Brent. I went ahead and paid for the Whitehall head this morning. The heads are in stock, the profile I ordered has a 2-3 day delay. Shipping for future separate profiles is around $6, which is reasonable.

Brent, I'm curious if you have tried just using knives without limiters on this head. I'm thinking it is possible that the wedge won't hold/fit properly if it doesn't have a chunk of metal on each side, depending on the depth of the wedge.

Thanks again everyone for you help. The DC40, MAN head and 'Rod's favorite Shaper book' are all on their way. I should have time to read the book before the MAN head arrives.

Which of the heads did you end up getting? I've done it on both heads actually, but I try not to get into the habit of it! You are correct that the wedge won't work without something in the limiter slot. When I've done it, I just use a very short limiter from another profile, (you have to be careful that none of the other limiter's profile extends out too far!) but if that doesn't work, I ground down another knife to work as a short blank. Essentially what I try to do is put something in there that will still sorta work as a bit of a limiter. Even if it's crude and not up to official limiter spec, since you need something in there anyway.....might as well. I keep meaning to grind down a bunch of knives straight across at different projections to use for this, but haven't gotten around to it.

One thing I forgot to mention too is that ever since I got the rebate block for the shaper, I never use the table saw with dado stack for rebates anymore. It is so much faster, safer and cleaner with the rebate block on the shaper. Once you get into that groove you're really going to be glad you have the rebate block. Since it's shear cut it works great as a pattern miller too if you have a template bearing for it.

I expect you're going to love it and you're going to love your shaper.

B

[Mark Bolton]

The DC40, MAN head and 'Rod's favorite Shaper book' are all on their way.

Couple heads up-s on the DC40 when you get it based on our experience.

Make sure you really clean the columns really well with laquer thinner as well as the internals of the rack and pinion column castings and gears. Ours came with a lot of grease in the rack and pinion assemblies and it wasnt cosmoline/shipping rust inhibitor. The grease over time migrates out into and onto the columns and will start to give you fits with slippage if your really pulling hard. The DC40 is so long, and the smart stand is so large, that the compound leverage is huge. We have pulled the columns off a couple times and wiped them down completely and swabbed out the castings getting more grease out each time.

The elevation casting knuckle was the worst culprit for us. Its clenchced onto the horizontal column with 2 bolts and that knuckle is open internally to the elevation rack and pinion. Over time and adjusting that knuckle for angular feeding (not flat to the table or fence) the grease gets out onto that horizontal column and will allow it to slip. The last time we cleaned it out real well we took some sand paper and taped off the horizontal column and put some light sanding scratches along the long axis of the column to give that knuckle a little more to bite onto and havent had any issues since.

Also, when you setup the smart stand think about your work and whether you swivel more often or adjust the horizontal column projection more often. We swivel dozens of times a day and I believe the manual shows the swivel lock on the main column on the inside of the mast. We pulled the horizontal column and spun that around so the lock lever for the mast is on the outbound side of the machine. Much handier.

Also had to pull the stud from the swivel assy on the feeder and put a touch of removable locktite on it because it would twist a bit over time.

Last, we ordered new wheels from western roller straight away. Our stock wheels were terrible. Our feeder came with what seemed to be an upgrade and rather than the T wrench in the videos to remove the wheels ours have small cast wing nuts holding the wheels on. When our rollers came from Western they were a cast poly hub not metal. We didnt mind that but they can tend to work the wingnut loose over time for some reason. Dont know if the stock hubs do the same because we never run them.
**Edit** P.S. Forgot to mention that the cast poly hubs have a thicker rim than the factory pot metal hubs. So our wing-nuts to hold the wheels on wouldnt fit inside the Western Roller hubs. We took them over to the belt sander and had to take a couple millimeters off the ends of each wing to get them to fit in the poly hubs. Western may have since started making cast hubs for these but I dont know.

Great feeder all around though for a machine that sees constant setup changes throughout the day. I'd never spend the money on one for a fixed situation but its a money maker if you do constant changeups.

[brent stanley]

Great advice and pointer Mark.....this will help a lot of people out.

[mark mcfarlane]

Which of the heads did you end up getting? I've done it on both heads actually, but I try not to get into the habit of it! You are correct that the wedge won't work without something in the limiter slot. When I've done it, I just use a very short limiter from another profile, (you have to be careful that none of the other limiter's profile extends out too far!) but if that doesn't work, I ground down another knife to work as a short blank. Essentially what I try to do is put something in there that will still sorta work as a bit of a limiter. Even if it's crude and not up to official limiter spec, since you need something in there anyway.....might as well. I keep meaning to grind down a bunch of knives straight across at different projections to use for this, but haven't gotten around to it.

One thing I forgot to mention too is that ever since I got the rebate block for the shaper, I never use the table saw with dado stack for rebates anymore. It is so much faster, safer and cleaner with the rebate block on the shaper. Once you get into that groove you're really going to be glad you have the rebate block. Since it's shear cut it works great as a pattern miller too if you have a template bearing for it.

I expect you're going to love it and you're going to love your shaper.

B

I ordered the 125mm steel combi head. Not the recessed one. I doubt I'll ever order another spindle/arbor, unless a used one falls in my lap. SCMI is very proud of theirs, it was $600 to add a 1/2 collet arbor, which I did not do.

[brent stanley]

I ordered the 125mm steel combi head. Not the recessed one. I doubt I'll ever order another spindle/arbor, unless a used one falls in my lap. SCMI is very proud of theirs, it was $600 to add a 1/2 collet arbor, which I did not do.

If you ever did want it, any competent machine shop could do the counter bore on your head for you easily anyway.

B

[mark mcfarlane]

Couple heads up-s on the DC40 when you get it based on our experience.

Make sure you really clean the columns really well with laquer thinner as well as the internals of the rack and pinion column castings and gears. Ours came with a lot of grease in the rack and pinion assemblies and it wasnt cosmoline/shipping rust inhibitor. The grease over time migrates out into and onto the columns and will start to give you fits with slippage if your really pulling hard. The DC40 is so long, and the smart stand is so large, that the leverage is huge. We have pulled the columns off a couple times and wiped them down completely and swabbed out the castings getting more grease out each time.

The elevation casting knuckle was the worst culprit for us. Its clenchced onto the horizontal column with 2 bolts and that knuckle is open internally to the elevation rack and pinion. Over time and adjusting that knuckle for angular feeding (not flat to the table or fence) the grease gets out onto that horizontal column and will allow it to slip. The last time we cleaned it out real well we took some sand paper and taped off the horizontal column and put some light sanding scratches along the long axis of the column to give that knuckle a little more to bite onto and havent had any issues since.

Also, when you setup the smart stand think about your work and whether you swivel more often or adjust the horizontal column projection more often. We swivel dozens of times a day and I believe the manual shows the swivel lock on the main column on the inside of the mast. We pulled the horizontal column and spun that around so the lock lever for the mast is on the outbound side of the machine. Much hander.

Also had to pull the stud from the swivel assy on the feeder and put a touch of removable locktite on it because it would twist a bit over time.

Last, we ordered new wheels from western roller straight away. Our stock wheels were terrible. Our feeder came with what seemed to be an upgrade and rather than the T wrench in the videos to remove the wheels ours have small cast wing nuts holding the wheels on. When our rollers came from Western they were a cast poly hub not metal. We didnt mind that but they can tend to work the wingnut loose over time for some reason. Dont know if the stock hubs do the same because we never run them.
**Edit** P.S. Forgot to mention that the cast poly hubs have a thicker rim than the factory pot metal hubs. So our wing-nuts to hold the wheels on wouldnt fit inside the Western Roller hubs. We took them over to the belt sander and had to take a couple millimeters off the ends of each wing to get them to fit in the poly hubs. Western may have since started making cast hubs for these but I dont know.

Great feeder all around though for a machine that sees constant setup changes throughout the day. I'd never spend the money on one for a fixed situation but its a money maker if you do constant changeups.

Thanks Mark for all the great tips. I'll go through these when I commission the feeder.

I did order 3 poly wheels and a pair of split poly wheels in my initial order. I just need to decide which location put the split wheels, 2 or 3rd position from the infeed side. ShopGear offered me the full width poly wheels for half price in my initial order, which I expect is their cost. They are working with Comatic to try to be able to get new feeders from the factory with the poly wheels installed, since that is what everyone wants. They were hopeful that they can sell the feeders with factory installed poly wheels 'next year'.

[Mike Delyster]

If you ever did want it, any competent machine shop could do the counter bore on your head for you easily anyway.

B

Can you fit the 40mm and 50mm pin knives that are common in North America (Amana, CMT, Dimar and others) in the Whitehill combi head?

[brent stanley]

Can you fit the 40mm and 50mm pin knives that are common in North America (Amana, CMT, Dimar and others) in the Whitehill combi head?

The small combi head is designed for those knives, and though they will fit in the larger one, there's so little projection beyond the body of the head, much of the profile is buried. I will put a knife in my larger one and take a picture. Give me a little time to go get the head.

B

[Mark Bolton]

Thanks Mark for all the great tips. I'll go through these when I commission the feeder.

I did order 3 poly wheels and a pair of split poly wheels in my initial order. I just need to decide which location put the split wheels, 2 or 3rd position from the infeed side. ShopGear offered me the full width poly wheels for half price in my initial order, which I expect is their cost. They are working with Comatic to try to be able to get new feeders from the factory with the poly wheels installed, since that is what everyone wants. They were hopeful that they can sell the feeders with factory installed poly wheels 'next year'.

Thats interesting to hear. The entire industry has never been able to figure out why comatic ships its feeders with dog poop wheels to begin with (which means every other rebranded feeder has the same crappy wheels). I also made the mistake of ordering a few split wheels with the feeder and should have held off and gotten them from western. That said, when we do need a split wheel its usually more for hold down and less for driving the work so we just use the stock mustard yellow split wheels. I dont know why Shopgear woudnt just force Comatic to ship the feeders sans wheels and pull them in from Western in bulk.

I mentioned it in another post, and Im sure most people will cringe, but I will tell you one nice thing about the Western Roller wheels with the poly hub. If you get a really tough to feed/hold profile you can litterally just let the cutter machine away the tire and any portion of the hub (within reason of course keeping strength/integrity in mind) and it will allow for 100% wheel contact on profile. Basically the tire and the hub get machined to the exact cutter profile.

Its rare for us but we have done it a couple times and it has left it in my mind to ask Western to supply these wheels on future work where we may have the same issue. Basically would allow you to have your center two wheels somewhat nested around the cutter with the profile dead accurate machined into the wheel profile.