ShopSabre F4 Vacuum

[Ron Hampe]

Looking for opinions on this single phase vacuum.
Thank you.

[Adam Bullington]

Ron,

I have been using the F4 since February 2018 and besides being a little loud it has worked flawlessly for me I run a Shopsabre IS 408 10hp spindle. May I ask what your concerns are?

[Mark Bolton]

Same vacuum here. I think about 3 years in. Zero complaints.

[Ron Hampe]

Thanks for responding! I am looking for a single phase vacuum for my CAMaster Stinger III which has a 49" x 98" cutting area and came across the F4 a couple of days ago. The only other system like it that I have found is the BlackBox Hurricane. Theirs has four 220v single phase motors that are appear to be the same as those found in whole house central vacuums and I suspect will need to be frequently replaced. I sent an e-mail to ShopSabre but have not heard back from them. Do you know what the specs (weight, cfm, inHg, horsepower or air watts) are for it? What type of vacuum pump does the F4 use? Do you have any issues holding small parts?

[Ron Hampe]

Thanks! On average how often are you using the CNC and this vacuum?

[Mark Bolton]

The F4 has similar whole house vac pumps. I dont know where you got the have to be replaced often is. As I mention, 3 years in and no issues with ours to date. We had a switch go bad and the manufacturer said they had a bad run of switches and sent us two so we'd have one in back stock.

Id guess maybe if you were running all four stages 8 hours a day you may have to replace a bit earlier but the benefit to the F4 is if you are running a smaller machine or even on large machine you only need to engage as many stages as you need for hold down. Other than when we are running full sheets with a lot of small parts or a small job that is very difficult to hold (almost never) we nearly never run all four stages. The vast majority of the time we will be working within a single, or two zones, of the table and may only engage a single stage. This means you can bounce around and not engage the same stage all the time so your sharing your daily load over 4 motors.

They are not quiet but neither is a 20HP Becker. The replacement motors are around 150 bucks so they are really not bad if one goes down.

*EDIT* you asked how often we are using the cnc and the F4.. Every day, often times seven days a week. Full time shop, 3 employees.

[Ron Hampe]

I was referring to the BlackBox system because their website lists the motor as a replacement part and am guessing that it wouldn't be there if they didn't receive frequent requests for it.

I spoke with Curt at ShopSabre and he said that the only replacement motors they have ever sold were in a new system that was installed incorrectly.

Noise isn't an issue. I worked in a steel mill for 26 years and no longer hear much of anything.

[Jim Becker]

Based on commentary in your other thread, the SS and the Blackbox are very, very similar devices...

[Mark Bolton]

I was referring to the BlackBox system because their website lists the motor as a replacement part and am guessing that it wouldn't be there if they didn't receive frequent requests for it.

I spoke with Curt at ShopSabre and he said that the only replacement motors they have ever sold were in a new system that was installed incorrectly.

Noise isn't an issue. I worked in a steel mill for 26 years and no longer hear much of anything.

Yeah, I have no first hand experience with replacement motors. I spoke with shop sabres manufacturer about the switches (they have a company that builds them for shopsabre) and he mentioned that the motors are very robust. I thought I had one motor going bad but it was on the stage with the bad switch and my guess is the switch was failing and arcing internally causing the motor to sound funny.

We have been tempted to relocate ours for noise and heat issues in the summer but at this point Im thinking more of hanging it on the wall and building an insulated enclosure with some simple ductwork and a fan that would blow the heat outside in the summer and in winter we could just open the door on the enclosure and gain the heat for the shop when we need it to offset the gas heat. Between two cyclones, the vac, the CNC, and the other equipment running all at once we enjoy the benefits of the heat in the winter but it really make it miserable in the summer.

[Ron Hampe]

Thanks that is a good point and hadn't thought about the heat issue, but am locating the CNC near a garage door that will be framed in and and could easily build an enclosure and gate it into the main supply duct for winter. One thing Curt mentioned was that these have to be mounted with the feet down otherwise the motors will fail. The ones they replaced were because the fellow mounted the unit on its side.

[Brad Shipton]

SS started out re-selling the black box. It seems to me that they came up with the F4 based largely on it. It uses virtually the same motors, but as mentioned, the specs are a bit different. I believe they added a fan to theirs because they had some customers cook the black box. It is possible that the black box has changed. I have not looked at one in detail for a while. These vacuum motors run hot. I emailed to confirm with the manufacturer the max temp for my lighthouse motors, and I was told they are fine up to 180deg F. Mine regularly run at 170deg F +. I know because I added a gauge that can measure temps that high (inside of the box temp). They must have enough venting. I have about 200-300hrs on mine. I did cook one motor, but I am sure that was because a steel chip got in the box when I was cutting some steel. These motors are not expensive, and very easy to replace. Took me less than 10min.

Here is the motor that was used in the Black Box at one time: https://www.centralvacuummotor.com/lighthouse.htm Model LH-7123 240V I am almost certain the SS uses a Cantek or Lamb motor.

The simple fact is you cannot generate that much vacuum or air flow in a single phase motor unless the impeller spins the speeds these do (>>15,000rpm). That generates heat and that all leads to a reduction in lifespan. The electric motor on the industrial units spin at around 1400rpm, and they solve the problem by using very large impellers. That makes them more durable. Downside is it takes lots of Hp to run the impellers needed. 10Hp gets you started into something useful for a table your size, but many with 4x8 tables have 20hp or more. There are differences between the regenerative pumps and the rotary vane pumps. A regen will generate less vacuum, but more air flow generally whereas a rotary vane tends to be the opposite. For slower cut speeds where you do not have enough juice for a big motor I think a regen can be better in many cases. You need to read the chart that goes with each pump if you start looking at those.

[James Biddle]

I've got a F4 and a 15hp FPZ regen. The F4 holds as well as the FPZ until maybe the spoilboard gets a little cut up. I'm going to sell the FPZ.

[Mark Bolton]

Thanks that is a good point and hadn't thought about the heat issue, but am locating the CNC near a garage door that will be framed in and and could easily build an enclosure and gate it into the main supply duct for winter. One thing Curt mentioned was that these have to be mounted with the feet down otherwise the motors will fail. The ones they replaced were because the fellow mounted the unit on its side.

Yeah, Ive always found that to be odd but I had planned on just building a shelf up high (we have 10' celings) and setting it on the shelf. It would require jumping out the onboard switches and wiring them to a remote location but I would be fine with that. The more I type about this mod the more I want to do it lol.

[eugene thomas]

The whole black box and F4. Reverse engineering at its best.

[Mark Bolton]

I remember reading a post once on a commercial forum where a shop had installed something like two 50HP vacs and felt they finally had enough hold down. In all the reading I have done it seems that large production shops running ply and high gloss products that are slippery, struggle with vac mainly on the ply but it always seems to be due to low grade material. They are running import ply and they are looking for enough vac to suck a potato chip down flat even on small parts and when they cut off the vac the parts just about jump off the table. We ran some nasty 1/2" ply a while back that I couldnt pull down to save my life. There were several sheets I had to set aside and cut on the slider for backs and decks.

I dont think most smaller shops that pay attention to detail, as a general rule run better quality material, have as much problem with holding parts. We are also not cutting at 1500ipm. Its great to read, and take advice from, the big boys but in a smaller shop with any of these level CNC's I think getting too carried away is a recipe for an empty wallet.