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Thread: Will I actually use it... CNC that is

  1. #1
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    Will I actually use it... CNC that is

    Bear with me though I am sure my question has been ask a thousand times I have answered many questions that have been ask that often.


    There was a time when I considered myself computing and computer literate but as time has gone by they have become simply a tool in my life much like a fork, I use them all the time but they just work. What I am NOT looking for is another hobby unto itself with a near verticle learning curve, I have more than enough hobbies for 10 men. What I do want is the ability to augment my woodworking hobby.

    My question is how difficult is it with someone with zero CAD experience to dive into the CNC pool (on the shallow end). I have kinda been eyeing something like the Shapeoko XXL to dip my toe in. The last thing I want to do is spend $10k+ and never even reach the first plateau of the learning curve because I find better things to do.

    Why do I want one? Well, all the cool kids on the tube of yous have them and I actually have a specific use that is driving this. I am huge home theater/AV guy and a hobby speaker builder. One of the rages in DIY speakers is stacked laminate cabinets which allow for complex shapes that reduce internal cabinet reflections and just as importantly allow for visually stunning cabinets.

    So like everything else I can imagine it takes a lifetime to go from A to Z but what sort of commitment in time am I looking at to go from A to I can actually get the thing to cut something I see in my mind.

    Beyond that if people feel generous they can throw out suggestions for CNC machines that won't blow my self-imposed budget of a couple of grand. Yeah the budget is flexible BUT I know how these things work, you are going to creep my budget anyway so I am trying to anchor it. I ain't spending a fortune on one of these machines out of the gate, it isn't a bandsaw for gosh sake.

    Again, no CAD experience but I can do this in Paint without reading instructions...


    cnc.png
    Of all the laws Brandolini's may be the most universally true.

    Deep thought for the day:

    Your bandsaw weighs more when you leave the spring compressed instead of relieving the tension.

  2. #2
    First, let me say this, many have said it but few heed it, Buy your 2nd machine first. My first cnc was a Shark with a Bosch Colt palm router. I knew nothing about CNC machines at the time. The machine was very limited because it had a lot of flex and while you can get the job done with a small HP palm router it isn't the most efficient way and you will have to learn to work around it's deficiencies. If that is your budget then it is what it is. We all have budgets we have to work in. Running the machine itself is pretty simple. With a couple of videos you can set the machine up and make a simple sign the first day.

    Software to create the design and turn it into the gcode is where it can be more complicated. I learned vectric vcarve. I could use it and do the basics in a few hours to a few days. Enough that you will be satisfied that it isn't just sitting on a shelf collecting dust. It is very good software and they have a very good forum and plenty of training videos to get you up to speed but there is a learning curve to it. It took me almost a year before I felt really pretty proficient in it. I didn't know how to do everything but I knew the vast majority of how to create intricate files for items that I was creating. You will only get out of it, what you put into it. You start simple and try a little more and one day it will just click and really make sense.

    Don't assume that you will just order the machine and make super complex things immediately. Give yourself some time and learn in steps. Expect there to be several mistakes when cutting your parts until you figure out how what you design is going to end up on the machine. I had a huge barrel or two of scrap wood that I had made errors on in the beginning. Once I figured it out a bit I knew the things to avoid and rarely had any issues.

    You are right, it isn't a bandsaw. It will make your bandsaw seem primitive for most things IMO.

    In your budget range, I don't know of any good machines out there to recommend. Hopefully someone will come along and give you some other options. I think that you should watch a lot of videos both on designing software and what the machines are capable of before getting your feet wet. If you can find someone nearby that has a machine then go over and see it in person. Spending 2 grand to test it out and see if you like it then needing to spend a few more grand to get a better machine is always going to be a losing situation. I went from a $3500 shark to now I am working on spending around $20k on a large table.

  3. #3
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    Number one question, you want to make things but how long or how large? Table size. Frankly for the 2K range you could get something decent, but what these guys are going to tell you is that once you start making things you will want bigger, better. For example I now have my 2nd machine going up for sale to make room for my larger 4x4 ft one. What is wrong with the one I have now, nothing. It has a water cooled spindle and will do 24 x 18 inches and works great, just wanted bigger.

    Design wise, go here > http://www.vectric.com/ and look around a lot. The software is great and they have learning resources and downloads of trial software. Hang out there and here, these Sawmill Creek guys are pros. Search and read.

    Here is where I got my new machine from > https://www.finelineautomation.com/ With the stand, electronics, NEMA 34 motors and all it came to about $7600 and some assy required.
    Last edited by Bill George; 07-25-2018 at 9:06 AM.
    Retired Guy- Central Iowa.HVAC/R , Cloudray Galvo Fiber , -Windows 10

  4. #4
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    Van,

    First thing that sticks out in my mind from reading your post it "Stacked laminated Cabinets" with that being said there are some items to consider IMHO. Plywood generally comes in sheets like 4x8 and assuming you have the proper tooling to break down a sheet of stock without throwing out your back slinging them all over the shop you may want to consider a larger table size. and a added benefit is the larger the sheet the cheaper the price for sheet goods. so like i did i got a 4x8 machine and this allows me to do everything from small 2x3 brass engravings all the way up to full cabinet production without any headache. I use vcarve pro and mozaik for 99.9% of everything I do. I learned these two software packages in about 1.5 months of trial and error "with zero cnc backround" but now i have a good handle on how to do things and I can go from concept to ready to cut in minutes now as opposed to hours or days when I first started.

  5. #5
    (ob. discl., I'm a Carbide 3D employee)

    It's become a lot simpler to make CNC projects just in the couple of years I've been involved in CNC at the hobby level.

    Basically, if you can draw up a 2D plan, or model a 3D file you can get something cut (the 3D file may require buying a commercial tool such as MeshCAM, and for 2D, you may want to invest in Vectric Vcarve) --- the software has gotten that much simpler, with Carbide 3D's Carbide Create being the poster child for simple program making CNC accessible. Moreover, Carbide 3D has a standing offer --- if you get stuck on a file or project, we'll help you with it, even working up a custom step-by-step tutorial if need be.

    An early project which would be much simpler now is the locking register calipers I made modeled on those in the Studley Tool Cabinet:

    WIN_20150914_214307.jpg

    When I made that, I drew it up in Freehand, imported into Inkscape, exported an SVG, and also made a font, did CAM in MakerCAM using the SVG and in F-Engrave using the font (so that I could do a V carve), and cut the two files in registration --- these days I'd just work it up in Carbide Create (and possibly draw some elements in Inkscape and import them), and do all the CAM there.

    Probably the most powerful way for you to draw up, model, and then set up for cutting the files you describe is using Autodesk Fusion 360 --- but you could do it with opensource software --- I drew up a bunch of tools in OpenSCAD (a programmatic 3D modeler) and then then sliced the 3D model and cut it in layers:

    www.pinterest.com.jpg

  6. #6
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    Lets look at your $2k budget. A benchtop CNC in the entry level market needs a router, three electric motors, wires, linear rails, racks, pinions, Z axis assembly, computer, brain, and a frame (list simplified greatly). Those using a router seem to be using a $400 PC router in many cases. Those little electric motors driving the gantry back and forth may look like they should be cheap since they are small, but good quality ones that steps accurately and reliably can run a $100 - 200 each. The wiring used also tends to be a bit more expensive than speaker wire. A decent brain or break out board (BOB) like a gecko board or something along those lines is likely another a few hundred. You know what a computer runs, and a computer for one of these is not really all that high end. The frame can be aluminum or steel. If I total up just the raw parts you will have more than $2k before it is assembled. Those offering products for less are using poorer quality parts or are cutting corners they should not. I looked at some of the cheap ones before I bought my machine and found far too many youtube videos showing problems.

    The entry level CNC market is just not that big, and there are many time consuming steps to set a machine up correctly. If for example you are aiming for a cut accuracy less than 0.010" think about how you would setup the machine to achieve that. Small errors in squareness in any direction or motors that do not step exactly as told by the computer quickly add up and that target will be lost in the dust.

    If you want to see some kit options cncrouterparts seems to be a popular option among those at CNCzone. I have looked at prices direct from China, and compared to some of these. I do not think they have much markup beyond the normal importing and shipping costs.

    A complete kit: http://www.cncrouterparts.com/bencht...kit-p-369.html

    The motors, wires and brain: http://www.cncrouterparts.com/3-driv...-kit-p-74.html

    Another option is to import a machine direct from China. If you want to understand what you can hope for from them I suggest you watch Gary Campbell's acorn project: https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread....-Acorn-Project
    Last edited by Brad Shipton; 07-25-2018 at 4:14 PM.

  7. #7
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    Or you could look for used either on Sawmill Creek Classifieds or your local Craigslist. Interesting that Camaster supplies the same $400 plus router motor as OEM spindle on their machines.
    Retired Guy- Central Iowa.HVAC/R , Cloudray Galvo Fiber , -Windows 10

  8. #8
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    While I'm reasonably comfortable with technology and even drawing, I was a "CNC Virgin" only a few months ago. I have found that the learning curve is very reasonable and there are really, really good tutorial videos available from vendors like Vectric that help things "click" mentally. I honestly think that most folks with reasonable effort can be successful in adapting CNC to their shop arsenal and some of the things it adds to the mix are pretty darn useful...and even very kewel sometimes!

    The big Shapeako is a decent choice as a "first CNC" if you really are not confident, but I agree with Bobby that you might want to consider starting with your "2nd machine" first. I originally was thinking Shapeako and then Axiom and ended up with Camaster and even there, I ended up two steps up from what I first got a quote on simply because after doing a lot of the tutorials, etc., I "saw the possibilities" and wanted to insure I could pursue them. And you know what? If you really do determine that it's a bust for your own operation, it's a lot easier to sell a higher quality, higher function machine for more money than it is to sell a smaller, hobby-focused machine. Based on your posts at SMC over time, I think you already know that the better tools perform "more pleasantly" and bring higher resale when that's necessary. But I suspect...once you jump in this pool...you'll keep swimming. I honestly always thought that my lathe was the most compelling and addictive tool in my shop. I was wrong. My CNC has exceeded that. Already.
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  9. #9
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    I started with my second machine first. It is a Camaster Stinger I. It is a very capable machine for what it is but I wish I had started with my third machine first.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Art Mann View Post
    I started with my second machine first. It is a Camaster Stinger I. It is a very capable machine for what it is but I wish I had started with my third machine first.
    I'm sure they would be very happy to build you a larger one...
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  11. #11
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    Concerning the learning curve my experience was not what I anticipated. With the manual in hand I started doing air cuts of circles and squares and in the first hour or so I was cutting simple plaque shapes. A couple hours later I was getting pretty proficient machining VCarved text and some contour lines and I started machining plaques for a job that I had in house which was the reason for my purchasing my first CNC Router. The basic operations are pretty easy to learn, the most advanced operations are still on my plate to learn. I teach myself new techniques when the need arises because the work I do generally is fairly simple machining.

    I don't remember one person here who purchased a good quality CNC Router that was not impressed with its capability and soon started discovering many new avenues that opened up that provided an endless list of new things to try. I have said many times that CNC Routers are "Fun To Run" and I am amazed at what I am able to do with mine with so little talent.

  12. #12
    The learning curve is steep. No getting around that. But, there are tons of tutorials and such on the tube. There are several aspects of this. First is creating a drawing. Lots of options out there. VCarve is great and easy to learn. I forget which company offers Easel, but that looks like it would be not too hard to learn. Fusion 360 is free, but a little steeper curve and much more 3D leaning. Once you get the drawing done, you need to translate the drawing into Gcode. Again, there are lots of ways to do that. Vcarve, for example, does the drawing part and the Gcode part. Fusion too. Anyway, point is, there are lots of options. This is a fun learning process though. Looks like you have the lines/circles concept down, so you should pick it up quickly! ha! The other part is the software that uses the gcode to control the machine. I am using Mach3.

    One thing to consider too is the total cost. You need the hardware, the software, a table, duct collection, tools, router, better collets, a dedicated PC?, etc. It adds up quickly. As for capacity/quality/etc. , that's a toughy. That's up to you and what you want/need to do. When I was looking at the sub $2000 machines, a lot of what I read was about how to make them better and fix the things that weren't quite up to snuff. I really didn't want the machine to be my hobby - I wanted to use it. I settled on a CNC Router Parts machine (Standard) based on price/quality/support/etc. I couldn't find many posted complaints or issues. I bought a 2'x4' machine and that has been much more capacity than I needed. I have rarely used more than 2'. But, that's what I do, your needs will most certainly be different. No regrets. The capacity is there when I need it. Its too big for my small shop though! The only complaint I have about that machine is the ESS ( Ethernet Smooth Stepper - turns Ethernet into serial). I have had several issues with it (doesn't play well with Mach3 and Windows at times).

    I really think I could have gone cheaper and been just as happy. However, I do like the machine and its capabilities. It works well for pretty much everything I do. And that's important - what I do. I primarily build furniture, but I also play with electronics and other mediums. I use the machine for all kinds of stuff. I make signs, jigs, mill plastic for electronic panels, a little aluminum and about to do brass, some engraving, etc. Strictly and 100% hobby. I have done some inlay. It worked great for roughing out pockets for inlay (I finished by hand). Santa brought me a drag knife and I have used that for cutting cardboard, foam, cork, vinyl, etc. I'm working on a tool holder to hold a small spring loaded vinyl cutter right now. I recently used it to make a jig for the drill press. I used an engraver cutter to mark location lines for a jig to drill holes in odd shaped legs. I've also done circuit boards with it. Oh, and slate.

    Not sure any of this babble has helped. But it really is one of those things that, once you get one, you figure out all sorts of things to do with it. And, you don't need to spend a ton (relative) of money to get setup enough to have some fun with one. I know the Shapeoko and similar have a huge following and folks are doing some amazingly creative things with them. They were my first choice. For me, this is just another too in the shop.

    One last thing, consider the tolerances/precision/repeat-ability that you need. I'm a mechanical engineer and a bit nerdy, so I like precision, but it costs money! Not like it used to though - which is great for us.

    Tony

    Tony

  13. #13
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    My $.02. You are much more likely to use it if it’s is capable of doing what you want to do with it, and reliable enough that you feel comfortable putting a nice piece of wood onto it and clicking “start”.

    So my recommendation is to figure out what type of products you want to be able make that you are currently not able to do. How big, how thick, what kind of materials are you needing to work with. Hardwoods, sheet goods, plastics, metals?

    I built my machine to my own design because none of the machines out there met my requirements, even at prices well above what I was able to afford. Chris Schwartz, in his book on workbenches, writes that you need to be able to work on the face, edges or ends of a board. I designed mine to be able to work on faces, edges and ends of boards of the sizes I want to work on. Most machines out there don’t handle working on ends. I suggest you similarly figure out your needs, and make sure you buy what you need, and not put too much emphasis on price.
    Colorado Woodworkers Guild
    Colorado CNC User Group

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Gonzalez View Post
    My $.02. You are much more likely to use it if it’s is capable of doing what you want to do with it, and reliable enough that you feel comfortable putting a nice piece of wood onto it and clicking “start”.
    I truly agree with this...
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  15. #15
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    The learning curve is what it is. Steeper for some than others. That is usually based on any prior experience in the graphic arts or CAD. Lack of this experience adds a couple months to the process. I would ask: do you have a thousand hours to spare over the next year to year and a half? If so, go for it! If not, think about it for a while longer until you are ready to commit. Results will be proportional to time spent.

    Think of it as deciding to play a musical instrument. You will have to learn to read music (design), chords (toolpath), and then put it together to form music. (machine operation).

    Just like a guitar, if you are interested and persist, and even more importantly, enjoy it, you will succeed and have a lot of fun doing so. If not, you can be frustrated and give up like a small percentage end up doing. Rest assured that the majority of those that stuck it out were 50+ with no computer experience when we started.
    Gary Campbell
    CNC Replacement & Upgrade Controllers
    Custom 9012 Centroid ATC

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