Crosscut saw?

[David Ragan]

Good morning,

Am considering get a little bigger crosscut saw than my dovetail xcut.

My situation is not being able to manhandle large plank of 8' rough timber, at most 6/4, 14" wide-that would be not often.

Also, furniture parts of hardwood,

Can you guys help me sort out the important differences b/t Veritas, LN, Wenzloff, Pax, Lynx, etc?

I'd probably not do a rehab well.

after some research-something like a panel saw, 20"-24". 7-11 ppi/tpi.

A sash saw also seems great for cutting parts on the bench.

Is this one of those things that, as an amateur, the tool is going to be some much better than my skill, that all these finer points just don't matter?

Thanks guys

[steven c newman]

I do have a D-8, 20", 10ppi Panel saw in the shop
panel saw.jpg
I tend to prefer it's longer relatives..
family saws.jpg
Anything above 8 ppi..I have to send out to be sharpened....have trouble seeing teeth that small.

I'm sure the Saw GURUs will be along shortly...and try to sell the more expensive saws....Mine run about $8 or so.....when I pick them at sales....yard sales, that is.

[David Eisenhauer]

Sounds like a two saw thing to me - a larger vintage-type, backless carpenter saw (e.g. Disston or similar) in the 8-10 tpi range for handling the 8' timber (I'd go more for the full 26" length, but that is just me), and a bench saw with a back for general fine crosscut and tenon work. Those tend to run in the 14"-16" range with 14-15-16 or so tpi. There are discussions regarding the various brands of bench saws and you can basically spend what you wish on a decent saw. Consensus may be that the LV saws are very well performing saws in the economy cost range, with maybe the LN saws also being considered as another (higher priced) "best bang for the buck" choice. Other higher priced saws all have their supporters and probably all perform well. I see a panel saw as something more of a "jack of all trades" or specialty saw when attempting to fit it to the purposes you have described, but I may not have understood your goals as well as I should have. As to your last question, IMO, I think good tools help teach you good working technique. I also believe that good does not have to equate to most expensive.

[Jim Koepke]

Can you guys help me sort out the important differences b/t Veritas, LN, Wenzloff, Pax, Lynx, etc?

I'd probably not do a rehab well.

after some research-something like a panel saw, 20"-24". 7-11 ppi/tpi.

The Veritas saws are a lot of bang for the buck. The biggest complaint is about their being a 21st century rendition of traditional joinery saws. If you do not care about whether the back is brass, steel or a modern composition, then these might be your best buy.

As far as rehab goes it is rare for someone to get it perfect on their first try. That is the purpose of cheap yard sale finds. Contrary to popular belief it is very difficult to ruin a saw by trying to learn to sharpen. It is always possible to file all the teeth down and start over if someone does amazingly bad. If you do this with a $2 - $5 yard sale find, the worst case scenario is no big loss.

It often amazes me at how bad some of my earlier attempts at sharpening were, yet the saws still cut fine.

My suggestion for a good saw was going to be to check with Ron Bontz about a half back panel saw. Unfortunately his web site says he isn't taking saw orders at this time.

For bench top use you want a lighter saw that is easy to control. You will understand this the first time your big heavier saw digs into the top of your bench.

jtk

[Pete Taran]

David,

Old or New, $8 or $800, most folks that work with hand tools have a set of saws. A 26" 8 point and a 20-24" 10 point, both cross cuts is a good starting point. Add to that a 5-6 point 26-28" saw and you have a great general purpose starter set. As for backsaws, a 12" 13 point crosscut and a 14" rip profile tenon saw also will round out your backsaw fleet. Having sold Vintage Saws for going on 30 years, I always advocate the old stuff. To get a true 26" taper ground blade, you are down to just one modern maker, and the cost is several times what a Vintage Saw would cost.

Hope this helps.

[Brandon Speaks]

You are for sure looking for 2 saws not one based on the description. For the larger stock a full size hand saw, on the smaller end something like a carcass or sash saw.

On the smaller ones there are tons of good makers out there at whatever price point you want. Veritas makes good saws, I think this one would be in the $65 range, and prices go up from there. Myself I have veritas and some restored vintage saws, I may be asking for a bad axe bayonet with the hybrid filing for christmas though, way more than you need but it would be my one splurge tool for the year.

On the hand saw there are some modern makers like bad axe and lie nielsen although the prices are more than I have wanted to pay. I see nicely restored, tuned, and sharpened saws in the $150 range near me. I also have been learning to file a saw with pretty good success and at this point prefer to do my own. I have not stumbled across any $6 saws although I dont frequent yard sales and flea markets. I have a whole pile of $15-$40 saws though that were in good shape with straight blades and good tooth lines and only required a sharpening.

I will say though that I could see getting two bad axe D8 clones and having them resharpened once per year (might not even need to be that often) professionally as being a viable alternative that could even be cost effective compared to going down the rabbit hole of saw restoration and saw collecting.

[David Ragan]

Sounds like a two saw situation to me too.

What about the sash saw?

[steven c newman]

Hmmmm..
IMG_5180 (640x480).jpg
Usuallly, I cut down the smaller 8' long stuff with this saw...
IMG_5179 (640x480).jpg
Gives me a nice, SQUARE edge to start with....or any angle up to a 45....
IMG_5181 (640x480).jpg
For the WIDE stuff.....COPD keeps me from getting to active with a long cut with the handsaws....and..this IS a Vintage saw BTW..
wax the saw.jpg
My joinery saw...just a well tuned up Disston No. 4

I may have a few "Extra" panel and crosscut saws.....been too long since I shipped any....forgot how.

[lowell holmes]

I agree with Pete. Start collecting them and they will grow like rabbits.
I have Disstons and they multiply like rabbit. Be aware a D12 is a collector saw. If you come across one, grab it.

[chris carter]

Faced with pretty much the same criteria, I went with a Veritas Xcut carcass saw and then got a 26" 10ppi WS hand saw on the bay for $5, sharpened it, and remove a subtle kink. Had I to do it over, I would have gotten the crosscut used also because there are a plethora of them out there, even ones that have been resharpened, for less than the Veritas. Sharpening Xcut does have a learning curve, but I got it right on the first try with patience. And I will admit that the Star Trekiness of the Veritas does make it slightly less fun to use.

[lowell holmes]

Two saws is blarney

I have seven Disstons in my shop including A D12 10 point crosscut. I have both crosscuts and rip. I have
made, finished, and put new handles one some. One is a curly maple handle.

Learn to sharpen and set your own saws.

[Mike Allen1010]

David,

Old or New, $8 or $800, most folks that work with hand tools have a set of saws. A 26" 8 point and a 20-24" 10 point, both cross cuts is a good starting point. Add to that a 5-6 point 26-28" saw and you have a great general purpose starter set. As for backsaws, a 12" 13 point crosscut and a 14" rip profile tenon saw also will round out your backsaw fleet. Having sold Vintage Saws for going on 30 years, I always advocate the old stuff. To get a true 26" taper ground blade, you are down to just one modern maker, and the cost is several times what a Vintage Saw would cost.

Hope this helps.

+1 I completely agree with Pete. David, for breaking down rough stock, like the scenario you described: crosscutting 14 inch wide, 6/4 thick lumber, a 26 inch 6 – 8 PPI vintage, crosscut saw is absolutely the ticket. As Pete mentioned, the bare minimum standard preindustrial woodworker saw nest for crosscutting begins with an 8 PPI and 10 – 12 PPI for finish crosscuts. Vintage saws have superior technology like dual, taper ground saw plates and hand tensioning, that to my knowledge is not currently available. No hocus-pocus "marketing speak", full-size vintage saws are hands down better than anything currently available. The same is not true for backed, joinery saws as current makers produce state-of-the-art tools. Just my humble opinion as a 25 year hand tool woodworker.

Personally, as someone who relies on hand saws exclusively for crosscutting, I recommend full size, 26 inch saws for most jobs. They may take a little longer to learn to use accurately than a shorter saw, but was a little practice there much faster and just as accurate. For your consideration, I like 8 – 9 PPI for rough crosscutting 4/4 stock. For anything thicker, don't be afraid to go to a 7 or even 6 PPI configuration – there faster and just as accurate as the finer pitch saws and when rough crosscutting, the finished surface of the cut doesn't really matter, you're gonna clean that up when you get to final finish dimensions. Coarser pitch saws are a particular advantage when working with softwood, construction grade lumber. I recently helped my brother-in-law build a deck/patio cover out of 4x4 and 6x6 Doug fir and a D-8 thumbhole, 28 inch, 5 PPI crosscut was extremely effective. Then again I don't mind breaking a sweat for some jobs.

Pete's too modest to say, but I strongly recommend you visit vintage saws.com where you'll find excellent examples of saws ideal for your use.


Best, Mike

[Phil Mueller]

David, you may have made up your mind already, but I’ll second the suggestions from Pete and Mike. If I were in the market for a panel saw that’s well tuned and ready to go, I’d contact Pete or wait for Mike to post one of his in the SMC classifieds.

Regarding your question on quality vs. skill level, I like to buy the best quality, ready to use tool, I can afford - at first. This way I know it’s me and not the tool. It helps to hone the skill. Once the skill was developed and I know what to expect from a tool, I move to vintage stuff that may need restoration.

Regarding bench top sawing for smaller pieces, any of the cross cut LV saws will perform well. I have several in different tooth counts for rough cuts and finer cuts.

[lowell holmes]

For a D12, check this site:

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=disston+12+saw

[David Ragan]

Thought I'd tell what ultimately happened:


Saws.jpg

The first was from Pete Taran, a 10ppi Diston D4

And two D8s from Mike Allan

Note the great etchings.

I thought my LN and the Rob Cosman saws were sharp--who knew? I didn't until I sawed some w these beauties.

Mike and Pete, thank you-now I know.

And it was so much more enjoyable hand cutting today instead of TS

Now, time to learn how to sharpen like these gentlemen, well, an attempt