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Thread: Sharpening Stone Advice

  1. #16
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    King's are about the slowest, or at least some of the slowest, water stones. I used Arkansas stones for 30-some years, and have gone through a number of different types of water stones. My current favorites are the Sigma's. I'm not a hobbyist, so time is important. We still use the oil stones if we're on a site that doesn't have running water, but that would be the only reason. Personally, I don't like diamond stones because there is no feel.

  2. #17
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    I have gone to an India and an Arkansas. When I used waterstones I just used sandpaper on a flat surface to flatten. A sheet of good sandpaper lasts a lot longer flattening stones then it does sharpening steel.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnM Martin View Post
    Needing some advice when it comes to sharpening stones. I'm a couple of years into woodworking with hand tools and started with diamond stones. Sometime back, I decided to try some water stones so I purchased 1000 and 8000 grit Naniwa Super Stones along with a Norton 'Flattening' Stone. Things were great for a while, then I noticed something I wasn't expecting... my planes were cutting in the corners but not the middle - the exact opposite of what you want. Much to my surprise, the flattening stone had become concave (valley in the middle) - leading to my waterstones becoming convex (hump in the middle). This of course, is no good and explains why the plane irons were cutting like they were....


    So my first question - why would the flattening stone not stay flat? I guess I assumed it was made for flattening so it should stay flat.

    Second question - what should I do? To use the water stones, it seems I will have to buy a lapping plate which seems to be the cost of a whole kit of DMT Diamond Stones. Given they are basically the same cost, is there any reason to go for one over the other (besides personal preference)?

    Finally, let me say this, I don't have any loyalties to water stones vs diamond stones... I don't care much for arguments of this vs that. I just want it to be as fast and easy as possible and give me the best edge possible (within reason) that will remain sharp as long as possible. I wan't to get to planing wood and be able to get my smoothing plane sharp enough to not have to get out the sander when it is time for finish.
    It is difficult to answer your question of how your flattening stone became concave without making assumptions that may not be valid.

    My solution for flattening water stones is mostly to use abrasive paper mounted on a flat surface. There are other methods, some may be controversial, such as using one stone to flatten another. If not done with care and a well planned strategy, this can end up with the two stones ending up as a pair of hollows and rounds.

    Not being one to settle easily on a single method of getting a good edge my choice was to use both oilstones and water stones in my shop. Diamond stones come into play in the kitchen.

    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  4. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Koepke View Post
    My solution for flattening water stones is mostly to use abrasive paper mounted on a flat surface. There are other methods, some may be controversial, such as using one stone to flatten another. If not done with care and a well planned strategy, this can end up with the two stones ending up as a pair of hollows and rounds.

    Not being one to settle easily on a single method of getting a good edge my choice was to use both oilstones and water stones in my shop. Diamond stones come into play in the kitchen.
    A worn-out diamond plate is a really good water stone flattener, and doesn't seem to lead to grit contamination. You gotta do something with them, and it's free (unlike those Nano's which are godawful expensive.)

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Dawson View Post
    A worn-out diamond plate is a really good water stone flattener, and doesn't seem to lead to grit contamination. You gotta do something with them, and it's free (unlike those Nano's which are godawful expensive.)
    The free part sounds good. None of my diamond stones are big enough to use for flattening a water stone. The two in the kitchen are fine and x-fine to keep the knives in shape between trips to the stones.

    Their being expensive is my main reason for using a different method that works for me.

    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  6. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Koepke View Post
    The free part sounds good. None of my diamond stones are big enough to use for flattening a water stone.
    They don't have to be as big as the stone to use them for this, just as a jointer plane doesn't have to be as big as the board to true it.

    I've used sandpaper on plate glass to flatten, as well, and it's messy, you have to rinse off the sandpaper to avoid massive grit contamination (you're taking a relatively massive amount of material off of the stone.)

    Cheap diamond plates are fun to play with (as long as they're flat) until they don't cut good anymore.

  7. #22
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    John,

    There is a change in technique that effects this as well and helps to keep the stones flatter longer. I have some stones that I have not flattened in a long time and yet they function as intended. When you use the stone, use the whole stone and as a part of regular technique I put the bevel side partially over the edge of the stone to maintain my camber. It’s more reliable than relying upon the stone surface to help in that regard.

    My fine stones are kept flat for work on the back of the iron.

    Warren mentioned this technique a few years back, i put it to use ever since.
    Bumbling forward into the unknown.

  8. #23
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    To the original question, Paul Sellers promotes diamond plates and a strop. Sharpening Supplies currently has a set of four DMT 8x3 plates for $200. I went from scary sharp to water stones and like you don't like the dishing, so I'm considering going the diamond plate route. I know some folks complain about the lack of feedback in using a diamond plate. Sellers looks to spend more time on the trop than he does on the stones, maybe because 1200 diamond stone is what DMT refers to as extra fine.

  9. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Holcombe View Post
    John,

    There is a change in technique that effects this as well and helps to keep the stones flatter longer. I have some stones that I have not flattened in a long time and yet they function as intended. When you use the stone, use the whole stone and as a part of regular technique I put the bevel side partially over the edge of the stone to maintain my camber. It’s more reliable than relying upon the stone surface to help in that regard.

    My fine stones are kept flat for work on the back of the iron.

    Warren mentioned this technique a few years back, i put it to use ever since.

    Brian,

    I'm not sure I understand your reference to using the bevel side partially over the edge. Do you have a link to the original Warren post or a search term?

    ken

  10. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by ken hatch View Post
    Brian,

    I'm not sure I understand your reference to using the bevel side partially over the edge. Do you have a link to the original Warren post or a search term?

    ken
    Generally when a stone goes out of flat from use it becomes concave. A small concavity is a good thing because it promotes the formation of camber on the iron. Too much of a hollow on the stone encourages too much camber for a smoothing plane or a jointer. The way we counteract that is by using as much length of the stone as possible and by holding a wide chisel or plane iron so it overhangs the edge of the stone so we can concentrate wear at the edges. The edges are neglected if we rub the tool down the middle of the stone. We are managing the wear on the stone and the camber at the same time. The stone has to be trued up much less often, like only after hundreds of sharpenings. We thus save a lot of time and stone wear.

    The original poster in this thread had a stone that became convex. It sounds to me as if he was following some formula to decide when to flatten rather than flattening when the stone needed it. We usually wait until we have trouble getting a flat enough camber as evidenced by the way the plane cuts. So if your smoothing plane, for instance, cuts only in the very middle when taking an appropriate thickness shaving, and you can't remedy that by rubbing the center of the blade toward the edge of the stone, maybe it is time to flatten. For many there is a disconnect between the flattening of a stone and the real world ramifications of a stone that needs flattening.

    There are some weird statements in this thread. When I read about how inefficient my stones are, I wonder if I can reduce my sharpening time to two or three seconds (full bevel) by changing stones.

  11. I've heard the entire line up of Sigma Select 2 stones is very good. I only have experience with the 6000 grit stone from the line up and I think it's probably one of the best higher grit tool stones around because the edge is super smooth. I've been using it for a few weeks now and I make sure the use the entire surface. I have not yet had to flatten it.

    One thing I really like is that it behaves very much like a natural stone on Japanese chisels. It releases a good amount of mud on soft steel and only polishes the hard steel.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by ken hatch View Post
    Brian,

    I'm not sure I understand your reference to using the bevel side partially over the edge. Do you have a link to the original Warren post or a search term?

    ken
    I posted a video on youtube some time ago and it shows it, but basically half the edge is hanging off of the stone sometimes when I'm working more camber into an iron. I'm then applying pressure to the side that is still on the stone and working as I normally due to maintain the bevel.

    I reduce camber by running the middle of the blade off the corners of the stone, also, if need be. Whatever is needed for the blade, is all.
    Bumbling forward into the unknown.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jessica de Boer View Post
    I've heard the entire line up of Sigma Select 2 stones is very good. I only have experience with the 6000 grit stone from the line up and I think it's probably one of the best higher grit tool stones around because the edge is super smooth. I've been using it for a few weeks now and I make sure the use the entire surface. I have not yet had to flatten it.

    One thing I really like is that it behaves very much like a natural stone on Japanese chisels. It releases a good amount of mud on soft steel and only polishes the hard steel.
    I've only used the 13,000. It's a wonderful stone, and yes does act something like a natural in feel but performs more aggressively. I use it for steels that don't hone well on natural stones (I do have a few exotic steels that require something more aggressive).

    I used it for Kez last year and it matched my natural stones for performance in shaving thinness but tended to make an edge which was not as durable (by a few shavings).
    Bumbling forward into the unknown.

  14. #29
    Following the lead of a local Japanese knife sharpener, I apply these stones to my woodworking as well as my Japanese kitchen knives : Naniwa Pro stones : 400, 1000, 3000. Imanishi 8000 (from Lee Valley). For flattening I truly swear by the Atoma #140 diamond plate. This has a plain side on which can be applied another replacement pad. For touching up the 8000, I 1st flatten the 400 w/the Atoma - then use the 400 on the 8000. All of these stones are splash & go which is for me, a huge benefit. They require care in use but are unsurpassed IMO. I even occasionally go straight to the 8000 from that superb 1000 pro. The 400 is only for establishing a new edge. My 'Fine'(600) "dia sharp" still has a place also.
    B.

  15. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Warren Mickley View Post
    Generally when a stone goes out of flat from use it becomes concave. A small concavity is a good thing because it promotes the formation of camber on the iron. Too much of a hollow on the stone encourages too much camber for a smoothing plane or a jointer. The way we counteract that is by using as much length of the stone as possible and by holding a wide chisel or plane iron so it overhangs the edge of the stone so we can concentrate wear at the edges. The edges are neglected if we rub the tool down the middle of the stone. We are managing the wear on the stone and the camber at the same time. The stone has to be trued up much less often, like only after hundreds of sharpenings. We thus save a lot of time and stone wear.

    The original poster in this thread had a stone that became convex. It sounds to me as if he was following some formula to decide when to flatten rather than flattening when the stone needed it. We usually wait until we have trouble getting a flat enough camber as evidenced by the way the plane cuts. So if your smoothing plane, for instance, cuts only in the very middle when taking an appropriate thickness shaving, and you can't remedy that by rubbing the center of the blade toward the edge of the stone, maybe it is time to flatten. For many there is a disconnect between the flattening of a stone and the real world ramifications of a stone that needs flattening.

    There are some weird statements in this thread. When I read about how inefficient my stones are, I wonder if I can reduce my sharpening time to two or three seconds (full bevel) by changing stones.
    Warren,

    Thanks, that is basically how I sharpen/use my stones I just wanted to be sure I wasn't missing anything. With ceramic water stones you can go a long time between touch ups, with Ark stones I only flatten if I want faster cutting.

    ken

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