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Thread: Sharpening Stone Advice

  1. #1

    Sharpening Stone Advice

    Needing some advice when it comes to sharpening stones. I'm a couple of years into woodworking with hand tools and started with diamond stones. Sometime back, I decided to try some water stones so I purchased 1000 and 8000 grit Naniwa Super Stones along with a Norton 'Flattening' Stone. Things were great for a while, then I noticed something I wasn't expecting... my planes were cutting in the corners but not the middle - the exact opposite of what you want. Much to my surprise, the flattening stone had become concave (valley in the middle) - leading to my waterstones becoming convex (hump in the middle). This of course, is no good and explains why the plane irons were cutting like they were....


    So my first question - why would the flattening stone not stay flat? I guess I assumed it was made for flattening so it should stay flat.

    Second question - what should I do? To use the water stones, it seems I will have to buy a lapping plate which seems to be the cost of a whole kit of DMT Diamond Stones. Given they are basically the same cost, is there any reason to go for one over the other (besides personal preference)?

    Finally, let me say this, I don't have any loyalties to water stones vs diamond stones... I don't care much for arguments of this vs that. I just want it to be as fast and easy as possible and give me the best edge possible (within reason) that will remain sharp as long as possible. I wan't to get to planing wood and be able to get my smoothing plane sharp enough to not have to get out the sander when it is time for finish.

  2. #2
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    I felt the same way as you with regards to waterstones -- especially the synthetics. A Diamond stone is the best solution, but it's a bit odd that I need to buy an expensive diamond stone just to use my water stone...

    I want to make a suggestion to give oil stones a good look. Most people write them off as "old fashioned", "slow", and "messy", and so for the longest time, I also wrote them off -- until I tried a Norton India stone, and later some of Dan's Arkansas stones. They were the perfect solution for me: they stay flat, the India stones cut quickly, they're far less messy compared to waterstones and don't require presoaking, and they're not prone to rust. Arkansas stones are great for polishing -- not the fastest stone on the block, but the hard white ones are fine enough to either finish on, or go on to a strop, and are plenty fast enough to quickly remove the scratches from an India. They also stay flat forever.

    Quality stones, such as from Dan's, will handle most steels including A2 and Japanese steels, but beware of cheap Arks. India stones are great and will handle just about anything. I'd recommend a Norton Fine or Combination India and a hard white arkansas to anyone getting into sharpening: they're excellent stones which are far too overlooked, in my opinion.

    Of course, some people prefer waterstones and that's great too. I'm trying out Jnats now that I'm in Japan and like them quite a bit -- I just don't like that I can't use oil, because some of my tools are very prone to rusting, and I do find water a bit more messy at times (though, less so with Jnats vs Synthetics, as you don't need to presoak and can often use less).

    As for flattening and maintenance, by the way, here is my experience with oilstones:

    > Fine India (Aluminum Oxide): Stays flat for many months. Over a year or so it will start to dish a bit. I correct this with sandpaper and a flat surface, and then dress lightly with a 400grit diamond plate to make sure that the cutting surface is not dulled by the sandpaper. This keeps my stone flat, cutting fresh and unclogged, and I have to do it at most once or twice a year. I think the perception of oilstones being slow is mostly due to poor maintenance and neglecting this.

    > Arkansas Stones: Soft Arks will eventually dish over the years, but I've never had this happen yet: even after several years of using my arks, they're dead flat -- exactly as they came from Dan's.

    > Vintage Washitas: Thought I'd mention these too, because they're incredible stones if you can find them on ebay or at antique stores / flea markets. To be clear, I'm speaking of Norton / Pike Washitas, and not modern "Washitas" which are merely low density Arks. They aren't mined anymore and therefore need to be purchased vintage, but were quite common in 2"x8" sizes, such that it's not a bad idea to just buy unlabelled vintage 2x8 stones on ebay in hopes of finding a bargain. These stones were more popular than Arks back in the day, and for good reason: They're very fast for a natural stone, and can at the same time finish very fine if taken to a strop -- even bare leather. They're one of the few stones, natural or synthetic, which excels as a "one stone solution." However, they dish much faster than Arkansas stones do: far less than waterstones, but definitely enough that you may want to take a diamond stone to them for a quick touchup after a couple of heavy sharpening sessions.
    Last edited by Luke Dupont; 07-20-2018 at 10:24 PM.

  3. #3
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    +1 to what Luke says. Oil stones are easier to work with.
    Don

  4. #4
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    But not as fast cutting, by maybe a factor of 20 with some water stones.

  5. #5
    thanks for this great info, Luke. I might have to give the oil stones a look. What would you expect to pay (ballpark) to get into a kit of stones that would last a while?

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnM Martin View Post
    Needing some advice when it comes to sharpening stones. I'm a couple of years into woodworking with hand tools and started with diamond stones. Sometime back, I decided to try some water stones so I purchased 1000 and 8000 grit Naniwa Super Stones along with a Norton 'Flattening' Stone. Things were great for a while, then I noticed something I wasn't expecting... my planes were cutting in the corners but not the middle - the exact opposite of what you want. Much to my surprise, the flattening stone had become concave (valley in the middle) - leading to my waterstones becoming convex (hump in the middle). This of course, is no good and explains why the plane irons were cutting like they were....


    So my first question - why would the flattening stone not stay flat? I guess I assumed it was made for flattening so it should stay flat.

    Second question - what should I do? To use the water stones, it seems I will have to buy a lapping plate which seems to be the cost of a whole kit of DMT Diamond Stones. Given they are basically the same cost, is there any reason to go for one over the other (besides personal preference)?

    Finally, let me say this, I don't have any loyalties to water stones vs diamond stones... I don't care much for arguments of this vs that. I just want it to be as fast and easy as possible and give me the best edge possible (within reason) that will remain sharp as long as possible. I wan't to get to planing wood and be able to get my smoothing plane sharp enough to not have to get out the sander when it is time for finish.
    John,

    The Norton Flattening Stone doesn't. It is basically worthless. Shapton makes a very good diamond flattening stone but it is very expensive, DMT makes a large diamond flattening plate, also expensive but not as expensive as the Shapton. Atoma diamond stones are very flat and relativity cheap. There may be others that will work as well but those are the ones I've used.

    Second question. All stones will sharpen but some work "better" i.e. work with you and your iron better than others. That's your job, to find the prince among all the frogs.

    ken

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnM Martin View Post
    thanks for this great info, Luke. I might have to give the oil stones a look. What would you expect to pay (ballpark) to get into a kit of stones that would last a while?
    John,

    Even with oil stones most folks use a flattening stone on occasion.

    ken

  8. #8
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    I sharpen on diamond stones. I have a set of paddles as well as a large plate.

  9. #9
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    If I were in the need of a lapping plate for my stones I would buy a Nano Hone.https://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/Nano-Hone-C284.aspx
    I been using the shaptons Drlp and the glass one for at least 10 years. I think the Nano hone might be better.
    Aj

  10. #10
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    Get an Atoma if you're on a tighter budget. I would get it over a Shapton plate or the DMT plate anyways. It'll be useful for oilstones too. I too would go for a Nano hone, the button tech seems like the last word on lapping plates, Harrelson recently posted himself using the NL-10 to rehab some huge antique metal contraption; went through rust and everything. The NL-5 looks to be a good one for the budget conscious; it's also what Harrelson recommended when I talked to him as my budget was tight. I still haven't saved up enough (seems like woodworking and metalworking is a slow haemorrhage on my wallet) but the Nano hone line is what I'm going to get and I've been through Atoma and DMT plates. I've also used the Norton flattening stone when I first started out, It's only good for knocking down high spots on a real coarse banana stone. I religiously tried keeping it flat with sandpaper and a granite plate but it likes to work itself into a twisted or bow when lapping itself. It is a product that should come with a warning.

  11. #11
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    There are a wide range on diamond plates various folk have successfully used for flattening waterstones. If on an extreme budget drywall screen on a flat surface, e.g. a flat floor tile, can be used. But the diamond plates are easier and less messy. The cheapest I've found that I trust for the job are imported and sold by a small kitchen knife business: JKI Flattening Plate -- and it's out of stock right now. I'm sure they'll get more and you may want to email and ask when to see if you are willing to wait. The most commonly preferred choice is an Atoma plate, as already suggested. (Tools from Japan is the cheapest I know of, but can be very slow to arrive.) Their prices vary, but are typically more than the JKI plate. (Often double from US stores.) Then there are generic diamond plates folks find on Amazon, eBay, etc that typically ship from Asia. Many folks are happy and pay even less, but others have reported bad experiences with out of flat plates and/or poorly attached diamond chips. YMMV, but I've never been comfortable going cheaper than the JKI plates where I trust Jon to be careful with his sourcing and QC.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnM Martin View Post
    thanks for this great info, Luke. I might have to give the oil stones a look. What would you expect to pay (ballpark) to get into a kit of stones that would last a while?
    Well, it depends on how many stones you want to buy, and what size, but you can easily get started for around $50-$75.

    I recommend starting with just two stones: a fine "India" (Aluminum Oxide) around 320-400 grit, and a Hard White Arkansas from Dan's or Norton. I usually use 6"x2"x1" stones, but you can get 8" stones if you prefer more length. I'm not a fan of super wide stones, so 2" is perfectly fine width wise for me personally, but that's personal preference.

    Dan's sells what are probably the highest quality Arkansas stones around, and also sells man-made Aluminum Oxide stones that I mentioned:

    https://www.danswhetstone.com/product/bonded-abrasives/ (a 6" fine india Aluminum Oxide stone is about $26)
    https://www.danswhetstone.com/product/bench-stones/ (a 6"x2"x3/4-1" Hard Arkansas is about $50)

    For oil, Dan's honing is great, but you can use any All Purpose / 3-in-1 oil.

    You can also buy them on amazon.com:
    https://www.amazon.com/Norton-614636...on+india+stone
    https://www.amazon.com/Arkansas-Comb...2157241&sr=8-3

    Note: The Amazon links are combination stones, which you might prefer. I personally like to have two useable surfaces on my stones though).

    If those work out for you, you might also consider a hard black or translucent arkansas as a fine finisher, and a soft ark as a middle stone. Really though, you only need two stones to start out with: a Medium or Fine India / Aluminum Oxide for quick cutting and bevel work, and a Hard Arkansas (Fine) or Translucent/Black Arkansas (Ultra Fine) for finishing.

    I usually opt for a strop with Chromium Oxide (the green stuff) instead of a super fine finish stone, though. You can even go straight from a fine India to a strop loaded with chromium oxide and get a very sharp blade, provided you spend enough time on the strop (40 strokes or so).

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom M King View Post
    But not as fast cutting, by maybe a factor of 20 with some water stones.
    Yikes! A factor of 20? Seems a bit of an overstatement, but if we're comparing them to Arks, I'd say a King waterstone is about 3-4 times the speed. It depends heavily on the metal you're cutting though; for super hard steels or lesser quality Arks, it may indeed be something like a factor of 20. One thing to mention is that there is quite a variance in the quality of natural stones.

    In comparison to coarse diamond stones, which most people regard as fast, I actually find Aluminum Oxide stones to be faster. The exception being if the stone wasn't maintained at all and is loaded up and the surface dulled, as often happens with old stones. Oilstones are definitely low maintenance, but I think that leads most people to over-neglect them.

    Generally a small number of strokes are all that's needed to raise a burr on a chisel or plane iron with an India stone, and then a minute or two on a soft or hard Arkansas will completely erase the scratches.

    Arkansas stones are rather slow compared to the synthetic waterstones that I've tried, and even a bit slow compared to Jnats, though. Starting on a Soft Ark instead of an India stone can take a while.
    Last edited by Luke Dupont; 07-21-2018 at 3:54 AM.

  14. #14
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    you have good stones. Naniwa 1000 and 8000 will work great and you don't need to look for something else, unless you want to. I second the recommendation for the Atoma. I've used the atoma 400 for a long time flattening my waterstones and is stays flat and cutting.

  15. #15
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    If you started with diamond stones why not use one of them to flatten the water stone?

    In the end there is no right system and many ways to get to sharp, I used diamond mostly but do have a king 6000 that I have been using quite a bit recently, not sure it is really making the results much better, but using it for now. The final stropping is the key in my opinion. But when it comes to sharpening there are lots of opinions and most are different, and many get good results.

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