Setting pins on gauge wider than chisel??

[Jim Koepke]

If it works, that's all that matters.

jtk

[Charles Guest]

Hey all,

I was watching a bench build video and the builder (Paul Sellers) says to set the mortise gauge pins just a hair proud of the chisel. This is for the cross rails into the legs, which is done with a through tenon.

Anyway, Paul doesn’t explain why to set the pins a little wider than the chisel. I get that the tenon will be marked with the same gauge setting so it shouldn’t matter. However it seems to me that having the gauge lines wider than the chisel will make chopping the mortise a pain in the butt. For example, where do you put the chisel: somewhere in between the gauge lines or up against one line or the other and try to be consistent as you move along chopping??

Someone told me that this is common practice for through tenons, i.e., setting the pins a little wider than the chisel, in order to have the tenon a little fat to prevent any gaps where the tenon protrudes.

Is this true or is this making things unnecessarily complicated?

Thanks!!

I have no idea if Paul Sellers practices what he preaches. He suffers from logorrhea on the presentations of his I've watched on YouTube. Most would be better made in half the time, with half or less verbiage.

On to the joint itself. The chisel should sit just inside the pins of the gauge by the same amount as the depth of the mark the pins will make -- basically just barely. For the mortise, there will be whisps of the lines left after chopping, ditto for the tenon which will need a stroke or two from a shoulder plane on each face to make a perfect, tight fit. The mortise is always only as wide as the chisel, regardless of how you gauge it. Never pare the walls when chopping mortises. You only pare the walls if you choose to use the drill-and-pare method, naturally. It is absolutely possible to chop twist into a mortise, especially with a chisel that is a slight parallelogram in cross section. These are actually the best ones to use, they don't get stuck as readily, but you can't just wail away. Cut the mortise, don't bash it out or take the day's frustrations out on it. Forget all the 18th and 19th century pieceworker stories you've heard about how many joints they could execute in an eleven hour day. Some speed will come over time.

Note well: only a stroke or two on the tenons with the shoulder plane, we aren't talking about a long, involved fitting process that takes longer than it did to actually saw the tenons. The proverbial 'fit right off the saw' is often, in actual fact, too loose. If it takes more than a stroke or two with the shoulder plane then you were too bashful with the saw vs. the line. If you have to trim the tenons a lot, and lose the lines, and it all becomes a big muddle, then there is a huge likelihood that you will trim twist into at least a few of them and this is practically fatal. The only fix is to whittle them down to a loose fit and then you've made a very poor joint at that point, and increased its chances of failure by a large margin. The fix is packing them out with veneer, but that's a hassle. Try to do the live joints right the first time, though after executing some decent practice joints first.

[ken hatch]

I have no idea if Paul Sellers practices what he preaches. He suffers from logorrhea on the presentations of his I've watched on YouTube. Most would be better made in half the time, with half or less verbiage.

On to the joint itself. The chisel should sit just inside the pins of the gauge by the same amount as the depth of the mark the pins will make -- basically just barely. For the mortise, there will be whisps of the lines left after chopping, ditto for the tenon which will need a stroke or two from a shoulder plane on each face to make a perfect, tight fit. The mortise is always only as wide as the chisel, regardless of how you gauge it. Never pare the walls when chopping mortises. You only pare the walls if you choose to use the drill-and-pare method, naturally. It is absolutely possible to chop twist into a mortise, especially with a chisel that is a slight parallelogram in cross section. These are actually the best ones to use, they don't get stuck as readily, but you can't just wail away. Cut the mortise, don't bash it out or take the day's frustrations out on it. Forget all the 18th and 19th century pieceworker stories you've heard about how many joints they could execute in an eleven hour day. Some speed will come over time.

Note well: only a stroke or two on the tenons with the shoulder plane, we aren't talking about a long, involved fitting process that takes longer than it did to actually saw the tenons. The proverbial 'fit right off the saw' is often, in actual fact, too loose. If it takes more than a stroke or two with the shoulder plane then you were too bashful with the saw vs. the line. If you have to trim the tenons a lot, and lose the lines, and it all becomes a big muddle, then there is a huge likelihood that you will trim twist into at least a few of them and this is practically fatal. The only fix is to whittle them down to a loose fit and then you've made a very poor joint at that point, and increased its chances of failure by a large margin. The fix is packing them out with veneer, but that's a hassle. Try to do the live joints right the first time, though after executing some decent practice joints first.

Charles,

Hard lesion to learn but it sure is easier and better to tap, tap, lever than whack, whack, then try to remove a stuck chisel that has twisted. Like most things in life mortising goes better with a gentle touch.

ken

[Jim Koepke]

Mine start out with a light touch to get started, then it is full speed ahead. Somehow they still turnout straight and fitting well:

Gate in Place.jpg

24 M&T joints, 24 draw bore pins and no glue.

jtk

[lowell holmes]

Showoff!

[Jim Koepke]

You got to know when to tap them
Know when to whack them
Know when to pry one way
and when to move your thumb...

jtk

- with apologies to Kenny Rogers

[Jim Koepke]

In looking back to reread this thread this question caught my eye:

I have heard people say never to pare the mortise and instead pare the tenon. Is this accurate?

Good comments on why and why not to pare.

My practice is to check and insure the mortise is square before cutting a tenon. Once the mortise is 'proper' it is left alone. All adjustments after that are done to the tenon.
Of course if an error is discovered there may need to be an exception to the procedure.

jtk

[Chris Parks]

When you ask a question about woodworking in a public forum you should be ready to receive and accept many different answers.

There isn't a single task in woodworking, to my knowledge, that can be done only one way.

For some reason this reminds me of a scene from Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid. In prelude to a knife fight Butch Cassidy says, "let's go over the rules." His opponent is outraged and yells, "rules in a knife fight! There are no rules in a knife fight." Then Butch swift kicks him below the belt.

So for the sake of civility, when you ask a question and another person with years of knowledge offers an answer you do not like, don't kick back below the belt.

jtk

I see a lot of criticism of Paul Sellers here and in other places, he has an acknowledged many years of trade and commercial experience earning his living from woodwork, some of it from people who are hobby woodworkers.

[Derek Cohen]

There is much good that PS offers, if one can ignore the evangelising. I am happy to watch him work and there are nuggets to glean. Keep in mind that his methods and jigs (e.g. for tenon paring) are aimed at new woodworkers.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Simon MacGowen]

I see a lot of criticism of Paul Sellers here and in other places, he has an acknowledged many years of trade and commercial experience earning his living from woodwork, some of it from people who are hobby woodworkers.

That's it!

The OP wasn't displeased with what he read about the advice to his questions but got upset about the negative comments he saw about Sellers.

If he had read my past posts, he would have known I call a spade a spade. I have also defended Sellers strongly here but when I disagree with him, I don't duck. Anyone who reads his blog also knows he doesn't duck and is a stronger defender of himself. He rarely accepts in his replies views contrary to his.

Also for the record, I agree with the comment about the length of his videos which often can be halved...but they are free. And we enjoy them.

Simon

[Simon MacGowen]

Keep in mind that his methods and jigs (e.g. for tenon paring) are aimed at new woodworkers.

Regards from Perth

Derek

I am not entirely sure that Sellers carries two sets of techniques (at least for most things), one for his audience and one for himself. He is passionate about his methods and he shares them because they work for everyone, new woodworkers or not.

I have seen people using the Stanley knives because of him and they are by no means new woodworkers. Sellers actually has used mostly bench chisels for mortising in his work and not because he thinks bench chisels are for new woodworkers, mortising chisels for the seasoned ones.

Simon

[Jim Koepke]

That's it!

The OP wasn't displeased with what he read about the advice to his questions but got upset about the negative comments he saw about Sellers.

If he had read my past posts, he would have known I call a spade a spade. I have also defended Sellers strongly here but when I disagree with him, I don't duck. Anyone who reads his blog also knows he doesn't duck and is a stronger defender of himself. He rarely accepts in his replies views contrary to his.

Also for the record, I agree with the comment about the length of his videos which often can be halved...but they are free. And we enjoy them.

Simon

Compared to some threads the negative comments about Sellers in this thread have been rather restrained.

Likewise, my preference is for shorter videos getting to the point without the pontifications and excess verbiage.

As far as provenance or awards go, it is likely Ikea furniture has won more awards than Mr. Sellers furniture.

That is no reason for me to start making furniture with the same methods Ikea uses.

jtk

[Charles Guest]

Charles,

Hard lesion to learn but it sure is easier and better to tap, tap, lever than whack, whack, then try to remove a stuck chisel that has twisted. Like most things in life mortising goes better with a gentle touch.

ken

The more noise and sweat one makes with chisel and mallet, the slower the going. It's absolutely just like pressing a saw - you'll do less work in the end! You may look like you're working to beat all hell, but you won't get as much done.