Setting pins on gauge wider than chisel??

[Seth Terndrup]

Hey all,

I was watching a bench build video and the builder (Paul Sellers) says to set the mortise gauge pins just a hair proud of the chisel. This is for the cross rails into the legs, which is done with a through tenon.

Anyway, Paul doesn’t explain why to set the pins a little wider than the chisel. I get that the tenon will be marked with the same gauge setting so it shouldn’t matter. However it seems to me that having the gauge lines wider than the chisel will make chopping the mortise a pain in the butt. For example, where do you put the chisel: somewhere in between the gauge lines or up against one line or the other and try to be consistent as you move along chopping??

Someone told me that this is common practice for through tenons, i.e., setting the pins a little wider than the chisel, in order to have the tenon a little fat to prevent any gaps where the tenon protrudes.

Is this true or is this making things unnecessarily complicated?

Thanks!!

[Simon MacGowen]

Anyway, Paul doesn’t explain why to set the pins a little wider than the chisel.

Thanks!!

I don't think he does. You can rewatch his youtube on M&T and he was saying something like right in between the tips of the gauge. There is little to gain by setting the gauge wider than the chisel whether it is a bench chisel or mortising chisel.

Simon

[Seth Terndrup]

Watch video 3 of the new bench build at 1:40.

He clearly says it, which when comparing to his other vids he clearly says to set the tips of the pins to the outer corners of the chisel.

[Warren Mickley]

Paul Sellers marks out the mortise larger than the chisel. He is planning to come back later and pare the side walls of the mortise on the gauge lines. (Video 4 19:00 minutes). His mortise is sloppy because he does not know how to use a mortise chisel.

If you are going to bore holes for the mortise and then clean up with a chisel it is nice to make the gauge lines a bit wide. If you want to make a mortise right off the mortise chisel and a tenon right off the saw, then you want to match the gauge to the chisel.

[Seth Terndrup]

I have heard people say never to pare the mortise and instead pare the tenon. Is this accurate?

[Simon MacGowen]

Watch video 3 of the new bench build at 1:40.

He clearly says it, which when comparing to his other vids he clearly says to set the tips of the pins to the outer corners of the chisel.

Never watched his workbench vid...I don't like any bench without dog holes.

Simon

[Simon MacGowen]

I have heard people say never to pare the mortise and instead pare the tenon. Is this accurate?

Paring tenons to fit mortises is easier, but I have come across people who cut tenons first (and then cut and pare mortises to fit the tenons). I have even seen some writing that goes with the tenons first (can't remember where I read it).

Simon

[Warren Mickley]

I have heard people say never to pare the mortise and instead pare the tenon. Is this accurate?

In general you want to think about what you are doing, rather than just collect rules to follow.

If you are making a through mortise, coming in from both sides, and they do not quite meet, you will want to pare inside for a correction. If you can see that you did not quite saw to the line, you will want to correct the tenon. Use your judgement.

If you set the gauge to your mortise chisel width and then use the gauge to mark out both mortise and tenon, it does not matter which part of the joint you make first.

[bridger berdel]

In general you want to think about what you are doing, rather than just collect rules to follow.

Exactly. Thank you for that.

[Luke Dupont]

I've watched Paul's videos and seen him do a bunch of things in different ways, depending on the circumstances. Rarely do I see him pare the walls of the mortise to fit rather than the tennon.

I often set my mortise gauge larger than my chisel if I'm also using it to mark my tennon. This makes sure the tennon is a hair larger than the mortise in width, allowing me to pare it down and get a good fit.

The width of the mortise is gauged by the width of the chisel usually -- not any lines or marks on the wood, which are only there to keep you straight and centered (unless you're doing something where you don't have a chisel the right width, like making an oilstone box, for instance -- or you bored holes first).

There are exceptions to every rule, so it's not good to just follow rules you don't understand.

[Jim Koepke]

Doesn't it come down to knowing what your layout lines represent and working to those lines?

If setting a mortise gauge dead on, a hair skinny or a hair fat helps you, then do it. For me setting the gauge to the chisel and then leaving the lines when sawing the tenon works.

Like so many things there are probably a dozen ways to do a fine job of the same task.

jtk

[Brian Eaton]

Having just finished my own Paul Sellers style bench build earlier this summer I might have a bit of insight. Whether it is good or not is another story, but...

I marked all of my leg mortises just a hair larger than the chisel (maybe 1/32nd or so?). I did chop out the first few like Sellers does and found that appreciated having a bit of wiggle room to clean up the inside faces of the mortise a bit. After 3-4 of the 8 getting chopped with a bench chisel I went to drilling out and pairing the mortises a bit out of laziness - it was very labor intensive to chop them out completely.

Once all of the mortises were complete i used the same marking gauge setting for the tenons, sawed leaving the lines, and paired down while testing the fit with my router plane like Sellers does. It worked very well and the only issue i had was that a few of the mortises ended up longer than the tenon - likely a marking error on my part.

On a separate note - you can definitely have benchdog/holdfast holes on a Sellers style bench! I drilled out several on the bench top and have really enjoyed using my holdfasts - those, along with a simple doe’s foot have really made my work holding better and more versatile.

[Simon MacGowen]

On a separate note - you can definitely have benchdog/holdfast holes on a Sellers style bench! I drilled out several on the bench top and have really enjoyed using my holdfasts - those, along with a simple doe’s foot have really made my work holding better and more versatile.

Just a clarification: I was not implying Sellers' bench design could not be modified so it could be used with holdfasts, etc. I was simply saying I did not watch that video series because with his design, the video didn't interest me. I have watched many of his youtube videos, again based on whether the topic was of interest to me.

I have not done any M&T joint by marking the mortises wider than a chisel I used (mortising or bench chisel which I tried on a recent project), as I usually don't drill out the waste first. Drilling out the waste sure will be more efficient in removing waste.

Speaking of Sellers, he should really stop mentioning about his 50 years of experience almost every time he shows something, because by now, anyone who does not know about his experience must have lived under a rock (although I did come across a comment in a blog in which the writer asked if he was qualified). Be confident about the technique you demonstrate without mentioning that you have done that for 35, 45 or whatever years. As long as it works, who cares if this is the first time you do it.

By the way, he is not alone...another editor-turned-publisher also has a similar behavior in which he often has to refer back to his x no. of years of experience in so-and-so, or to a commissioned piece he built, etc. to support what he writes about. There is no need for any of that to establish your authority.

Simon

[Richard Hutchings]

Speaking of Sellers, he should really stop mentioning about his 50 years of experience almost every time he shows something, because by now, anyone who does not know about his experience must have lived under a rock (although I did come across a comment in a blog in which the writer asked if he was qualified). Be confident about the technique you demonstrate without mentioning that you have done that for 35, 45 or whatever years. As long as it works, who cares if this is the first time you do it.

By the way, he is not alone...another editor-turned-publisher also has a similar behavior in which he often has to refer back to his x no. of years of experience in so-and-so, or to a commissioned piece he built, etc. to support what he writes about. There is no need for any of that to establish your authority.

Simon

I don't know why that bothers you, I think it's relative information although anyone with 5 years of woodworking and watching YouTube these days should be pretty competent. I'm sure some of his methods were learned in recent years because we all continue to learn. He now uses diamonds for sharpening but he has learned all the other methods as well so he has a great foundation or base of knowledge because of his 50 years. I'm OK with him repeating this fact. I'm also OK with you being annoyed by it, I'm not trying to belittle or be negative. Just adding my opinion and like @$$holes, we all have them and this is completely off topic, Sorry.

[Simon MacGowen]

I'm OK with him repeating this fact. I'm also OK with you being annoyed by it, I'm not trying to belittle or be negative. Just adding my opinion and like @$$holes, we all have them and this is completely off topic, Sorry.

It is a sign of weakness...which Sellers does not have when it comes to demonstrating whatever technique practiced for 50 years. Or is it a sign of lack of confidence?

Oh, by the way, I am saying this out of my 30 years+ of public speaking experience (or is it 35?).

Simon