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Thread: Options for Upgrading DC System

  1. #1
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    Options for Upgrading DC System

    I'm considering scrapping my 120mm dust collection system and replacing it with larger diameter ducting. After a few airflow tests using the Dwyer 477AV-2 and 166-6 pitot tube, I'm confident the ducting is limiting the performance of my system.

    I have a 3HP blower assembly connected directly to an Oneida steel Super Dust Deputy and a pair of Wynn 35BA222NANO filters. The ducting is 120mm (4.7 inches) Schuko steel tubing with lots of bends starting at the SDD. Now that I've had time to use the system I installed, I'm ready to sacrifice style over performance where needed and make the ducting from the SDD to the first 45-degree branch connection as straight as possible, even if it means tearing up some of the gypsum wall board to ensure there is enough unobstructed room for the duct. I can patch the walls later. There will still be some bends along the wall and ceiling, but not as many as I have now. I can also eliminate at least one of the branch connections, as it's not needed now.

    For now, I'm keeping the blower, SDD (with the 5-inch inlet), and filters. I'm looking for a European source for the SDD XL that has the 6-inch inlet, or equivalent, that will fit in my DC closet. For the ducting, I have a choice of 150mm (5.9 inches) and 160mm (6.3 inches) in steel, or 160mm PVC S&D pipe with a 152mm (6 inch) inner diameter. All are readily available locally, and the source for the steel duct is where I bought my saw and existing ducting. They will likely take the 120mm duct in partial trade towards the new duct.

    The pro for the 150mm and 160mm options is all of the fittings, angles, branches, couplings, reducers, and blast gates are available from one source in Mannheim, which is a 20-minute drive from me. The con is the cost, but I'll suck it up. The pro for the 160mm S&D pipe is the price and availability of angles and 45-degree branches. The selection of reducers is limited and the only source of blast gates that should fit (assuming I don't make my own) is Clear Vue. The Clear Vue gate is the only one I found that appears to fit over the S&D pipe.

    I will buy a two sections of 2-meter 160mm S&D pipe, along with a rubber coupling to fit the SDD inlet. I'll reposition the SDD in the closet so the pipe can connect directly to the inlet without any bends so I'm eliminating as many variables as possible. I'll also pull down enough pieces of the existing duct to make a 4-meter section of the 120mm duct and test it the same way. It comes apart easily in 1-meter sections.

    Here are my questions, but understand there are physical limitations in my shop that prevent me from making LASER straight duct runs to the equipment. Also, the measurement for the steel ducting is the inner diameter.

    1. Am I chasing unicorns trying to improve the performance of my system?

    2. Given the options of the 150mm steel, 160mm steel, and 160mm (152mm ID) PVC S&D, which is the preferred size for my blower assembly, SDD, and filter pack? I don't want to install ducting that is too large and wind up with a lower air velocity that can't pull the dust and chips to the cyclone.

    3. Is there any return on investment (mostly time) on replacing the steel SDD with the SDD XL? I bought the steel SDD during one of my trips back to the States. The shop had it in stock and I was able to repackage it for mailing through the USPS. I think the SDD XL might be too big to mail, so it might not be available to me unless I can find a stocking distributor or pay to have it shipped as freight.

    Time and money are two resources I have, but I only have one set of lungs and want to keep them in the same healthy condition. My shop is completely contained in a finished basement with a low ceiling and no external access, so any dust created has to be dealt with by the DC system.

    Thank you in advance for any advice!

    For reference, here is the thread describing my shop DC build and showing the duct routing:

    Dust Extraction Routing - High or Low?

  2. #2
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    Best results are going to be where the blower, cyclone, cyclone inlet and subsequent duct work are "optimal" for the air flow you need. If the 120mm isn't working for you, then it make logical sense to move up to the larger setup. I'm guessing that the SDD XL is going to be the biggest stumbling block because of the potential availability situation. You might start by messaging Oneida to see if the unit is even available from a European source as that's going to guide you further. If you need to stick with the current cyclone, then 150mm makes more sense since it's closest to the inlet size of the cyclone. At least in my mind...

    I will confirm, however, that the more airflow you can get out there, particularly for the J/P function, the happier you'll be.
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  3. #3
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    Thanks, Jim. I've already contacted Oneida, and while they were pleasant, there was nothing they would do and passed me to the European distributors. I'm still waiting for a reply from the German and UK distributors who stock Oneida products.

    I heard back from the vendor who sold me the 120mm ducting, and they do not stock, nor will they order, the 150mm duct. They do stock everything I need in 160mm, so I will wait until after my testing with the 160mm S&D before deciding what to do.

  4. #4
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    Have you estimated what improvement you will get with upgrading the duct size. While I believe it will be better, I think it will not be huge. It would be interesting to see your flow numbers and static pressure measurements.

    An observation that I have found is that I need better hoods at the hoods and can make major improvements that way.

  5. #5
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    You might be correct, Larry, but I have only one point of reference, which is the installed system. It does work well for the table saw, but I haven't used it yet for the J/P.

    As we say at work, the enemy of good is better, and if the increase in performance by going to the 160mm duct with my layout is marginal, then I'll keep what I have and will change the connection path to the SDD and eliminate that double 90-degree bend. I should be ready to test the 160mm S&D pipe this weekend.

  6. #6
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    My drop to the J/P is 6", but connects to the 120mm port via a 5" hose. I get very good collection with that setup. My system is a 2hp Oneida "Commercial" (predecessor to the Gorilla series) and has a 7" inlet. The first 6-8' is 7" and then goes to 6" for a good chunk of the main distribution. Most of my drops step down to 5" for larger machines and 4" for periphery including the CNC.

    Bummer you have to keep waiting for the European Oneida distributors to get back to you...I hate when folks who sell stuff don't seem to want to sell stuff. Bizarre to me, given over 30 years of successful sales experience in my career...I never delayed when a customer asked for something! (And was able to retire early because of it)
    Last edited by Jim Becker; 07-18-2018 at 9:14 AM.
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Becker View Post
    Bummer you have to keep waiting for the European Oneida distributors to get back to you...I hate when folks who sell stuff don't seem to want to sell stuff. Bizarre to me, given over 30 years of successful sales experience in my career...I never delayed when a customer asked for something! (And was able to retire early because of it)
    I suspect part of the problem might be with Oneida and how it defines its international vendors. I looked at all of the continental European distributors that Oneida lists, and only one lists anything more than canister vacuum cleaner attachments. One of the two vendors in the UK stocks a lot of Oneida equipment, and has the SDD XL in stock, but has not replied to confirm it will ship to Germany. If there were clones available for the SDD XL, as there are for the smaller cyclones, I would not hesitate to buy one.

    Unfortunately, home shops like mine are not common here. The salesman at the company where bought my saw and ducting from can't remember ever selling a slider or ducting to an individual. Those who do have a shop either use the smaller 3/4-HP units like the Harbor Freight unit and wheel it around to the equipment, cut everything outside and let the dust go with the wind, make do with the S&D pipe available at the hardware stores, or disregard dust collection entirely.

    One of the larger big box stores here, Bauhaus, just recently started carrying a 3/4-HP bag and filter DC system similar to the HF system. One of the sales associates I spoke with about it thought it was a leaf chipper, because it came in just before the fall inventory and no one explained what it did.

  8. #8
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    Update: I ordered the SSD XL today from the UK stocking distributor, Toolovation for about $550 delivered to my front door. That's almost $1,500 less than buying from Oneida and having it shipped to me by UPS or FedEx. Apparently, a container of boxes goes by ship, but a single box goes by air...and it isn't cheap. The German distributor didn't quote a price, but is happy to include one with his next order from Oneida, which will take about 11 weeks to arrive, if I commit to the order.

    I decided not to bother with finding a steel barrel, or having a 55-gallon drum cut to fit for the collection under the SSD. Instead, I'll build a box with 19mm (3/4-inch) plywood and locking rollers that can slide easily away for cleaning. I should be able to use a heavy duty plastic bag, with a sleeve insert to keep it from being sucked up, to collect the dust and chips and simplify the disposal. I have plenty of room for a 60cm square by 50cm tall box, which is 180 liters or just over 47 gallons. This is more than the 35-gallon plastic trash can I'm using now, and will likely not be as prone to collapsing as the trash can.

  9. #9
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    The shape of the bin doesn't matte, but it must absolutely seal with the cyclone to avoid plugging your filters. (not something you want to happen... ) So be sure you design that into the bin from the get-go with good gasket/interlock and very secure latching that doesn't distort the lid and cause a leak. REALLY important!

    'Glad you got a nice deal on the new unit. It should kick things up a notch when combined with upsized duct work.
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  10. #10
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    Yes, I know. I had to clean out my filters and DC closet after I realized I forgot to put the lid on the can after emptying it and then cutting more sheets of plywood. Lesson learned.

  11. #11
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    --

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  12. #12
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    If the impeller is less than 15" with 6" ducting the airflow will be marginal because of the losses in the cyclone stacked on all the other losses. A 14" impeller with 6" ducting and a lot of finessing of machine hoods, ducting entries etc such as bell mouths can just get to 1000 CFM and only just.
    Chris

    Everything I like is either illegal, immoral or fattening

  13. #13
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    The Super Dust Deputy XL arrived today from the UK vendor, and I started on the dust collection box this afternoon. It's a bit smaller than I wanted, 60cm square by 45cm tall, but still has more capacity than my flexible plastic bin. I had to abandon the rollers in order to make it fit under the blower and SDD stack. I was going to move the entire assembly up a few inches, but the inlet for the motor cooling fan is on the end of the motor nearest the ceiling, so I will leave it as is and be content with changing the bin more often.

    Unless there are better solutions, I plan on making a five-sided cage (open topped cube) using D49 reinforcing mesh, or something similar, to fit inside the box. This will be the retainer for the 3-mil plastic bag that will line the box and be used for dust disposal. If the D49 mesh is too large and the bag gets sucked into the SDD, then I'll find something with a smaller mesh size.

    I ordered some 6-inch blast gates from Clear Vue, since they were advertised to fit over 6-inch S&D pipe, and they should be here next week. If they work with the European S&D pipe, then I'll replace all of the current steel pipe with 160mm S&D. The 160mm flex tubing (smooth interior surface) and the S&D pipe fit nicely over the inlet of the SDD.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Parks View Post
    If the impeller is less than 15" with 6" ducting the airflow will be marginal because of the losses in the cyclone stacked on all the other losses. A 14" impeller with 6" ducting and a lot of finessing of machine hoods, ducting entries etc such as bell mouths can just get to 1000 CFM and only just.
    There's the world we want, and the world we have. I'll take what I can get and will be happy with any improvement over what I have now. I'll measure the impeller when I disassemble the system, but I remember it was 13 by 3.5 inches with backward curved vanes.

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