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Thread: To spindle or not to spindle: Quality vs. Cost

  1. #1
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    To spindle or not to spindle: Quality vs. Cost

    I am a newbie when it comes to CNC routers and have been looking hard at purchasing a Stinger 1 2x4 CNC for some various furniture projects. Everything I read is that CAMaster is a great machine and quality built. I am a hobbyist woodworker, but like the idea of a spindle vs. a router because of the lower noise generated. The accessory price for a HSD spindle is in the $2K-$3K range (depending on size). I am on budget and this is nearly a deal breaker for me.

    Spindles can be found on Amazon, Ebay, etc for nearly 1/10 that price. I realize the cheaper ones are made in China, but is there really that much difference in quality or performance to justify the cost difference? I want to purchase a machine that will produce quality results but I also am not looking for a machine to run a business and will not run it everyday, all day long.

    Are there lower cost (mid quality?) spindles out there that won't break my budget that will operate satisfactorily in a lower usage environment?

    Any opinions or experiences with spindles would be appreciated.

    Thanks, bob

  2. #2
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    Spindles are definitely quieter than a router, but the noise generated by the cutter is loud as well, so eliminates some of the difference. I like the spindles better because they seem to have more substantial bearings. I’ve been using my cheap Chinese spindle ($265 delivered, including the VFD!) for 2 years in a definitely non-production environment. I figure it’s the same price to replace as a router, has much greater speed flexibility, and it’s a plus that the noise is not as piercing as a router when it’s running for hours at a time. Plus, the ER20 collets have less run out and more size options than router collets.

    You can buy a couple of the cheap ones, and keep a spare on hand. You are then responsible for integrating it into the machine though... that is part of the price difference from CAMaster, they will integrate it and setup the control software, and support it. Make sure you are capable of doing this yourself if you want to go this way.

    For my DIY the cheap route works (I did all the integration, setup and act as my own support), for a commercial machine you are buying, a decision you need to think about.
    Last edited by Richard Gonzalez; 07-14-2018 at 10:03 PM.
    Colorado Woodworkers Guild
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  3. #3
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    Thank you Richard. Great advice. How does one go about learning how to integrate a spindle into the machine? Youtube? Forums? Not sure I know where to go to learn.

    I assume these devices need to talk to one another. Would that be in Wincnc? I'm guessing you would need to input the spindle parameters into WinCNC.

    Thanks for the quick reply
    Cheers, bob

  4. #4
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    The benefits of a spindle go well beyond the lower noise....they run smoother, have more power than you might at first think compared to a router and allow for software controlled speed variation, even in the middle of a cutting job, have more choices when it comes to collets which you will absolutely appreciate on a smaller machine if you end up doing very detailed work with smaller cutters that don't have 1/4" or up shanks, etc. I personally feel it's best to have it installed at the factory given how extensively Camaster tests the machines as a whole before shipping, but it's certainly possible to retrofit after the fact. There's at least one thread on Camheads where someone replaced the original router with a Chinese spindle. The level of integration depends on several factors, including WinCNC licensing, etc. I'm fairly sure that Gary will chime in on this, too. There is also the air-cooled vs water cooled religious question. A lot of the lower cost spindles are water cooled and that has to be dealt with when you install them. The Italian made HSD spindles that are OEM on the Camaster machines are air cooled. Mine has never been hot to the touch yet, even after running for several hours on a single cut.

    I opted for the spindle and it was very much worth the investment.
    Last edited by Jim Becker; 07-14-2018 at 7:39 PM.
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  5. #5
    Routers are noisier but once the bit starts cutting wood they both become noisy. Unfortunately, putting a spindle on the machine isn't like replacing the router with another router it isn't just a plug and play swap like a router. I would look at the Camaster forum and talk to the guys that use the routers. Plenty of them do. Since your machine isn't all that big, maybe consider building a case to enclose it which would help contain dust as well as the noise. Unless you are tiling larger material thru the machine than will fit on the table, it isn't an issue. I did that with another CNC that I had. Used wood and made plexiglass windows on all sides with a front and rear door on hinges. It cut the noise down quite a bit and definitely contained almost 100% of my chips.

    If you choose to go the route of buying a Chinese spindle and maing the change yourself, you will still be getting the machine from Camaster with the router then. You will Need the machine to make you a new mount out of aluminum for the spindle you choose and can see if you even want the spindle for your use.

  6. #6
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    I suggest you look into the runout difference between a router and a spindle. A spindle also lasts longer. It is not uncommon for the router guys to replace their porter cable routers every once in a while if they are heavy users. If it is outside your budget it seems many are working with routers. It is a big deal to swap out later, so I would think it over.

    Here is a cut/paste of Gary's comments from camheads:
    "Handheld Router (G-) (made for occasional handheld use only, horsepower is drastically overrated, higher run out degrades cut quality), 3 phase electro spindle (Best) (greater torque @ lower RPM, software adjusted RPM, made for continuous use, low to no run out) Please note that I didn't mention noise. The cutting noise from a bit, dust collector and vacuum hold down are loud enough to drown out the sound of any router or spindle. Now if you plan on reading while you cut 4 hour 3D files with low stepover, then you can use noise as one of your criteria."

  7. #7
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    I live in suburbia and noise level was a concern for me. I hemmed & hawed the $$ spindle/router question for weeks before placing my Stinger order with the 3.25 router. Two weeks after placing the order I was still hemming & hawing and called Camaster to upgrade to the 1.7kw spindle. It was a sizeable chunk of change, but worthwhile to me. When roughing or profiling with a 1/4" end mill it can be screaming loud with a spindle or a router. On the other hand, you can also spend many hours taking a light 3D finish cut with a ball end mill - sometimes several hours depending on the piece. With the spindle you can hardly hear it cutting. I couldn't bear listening to a router that long. The spindle cooling fan is actually louder than the spindle.
    The longest finish cut I've taken to date was 11 hours. The spindle was warm but not noticeably so.
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Falk View Post
    I assume these devices need to talk to one another. Would that be in Wincnc? I'm guessing you would need to input the spindle parameters into WinCNC.
    My machine is Mach4 and I know nothing about WinCNC, but I understand it has both software and hardware components. Remember that a spindle is useless without a VFD - a variable frequency drive which converts single phase 220V to 3 phase (make sure you include this cost when comparing). This is what allows the variable speed. It is the VFD that needs to be interfaced. This may be over an RS485 connection, via PWM or some other interface. It is not only a matter of imputing some parameters, but probably also writing/rewriting some macros, integrating into the emergency stop, and perhaps tweaking the post processor. I believe Gary Campbell makes a living doing this type of work, so it is unlikely you can pick it all up from a YouTube video.
    Last edited by Richard Gonzalez; 07-14-2018 at 10:28 PM.
    Colorado Woodworkers Guild
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  9. #9
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    Strictly speaking, it's not necessary for the vfd to be interfaced with the software. You can just use the integral vfd controls to turn the spindle on and off, control speed, and forward and reverse. Just like you would if it was hooked up to a 3 phase machine. Not very sophisticated, but it gets you going til you feel more comfortable with the whole deal. And maybe entirely adequate for hobby use.

  10. #10
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    Thanks to everyone for the input! I learn a lot from this forum.

    Cheers, bob

  11. #11
    When I built our CNC machine I opted for a 3kW water cooled Chinese spindle and Hitachi VFD. Both have been great and as has been said, the spindle is extremely quiet. Quiet enough that when I use a 1/8" bit or smaller or a V-bit I don't have to wear hearing protection. If I use a 1/4" or larger I definitely wear hearing protection but a lot of what I do is detail work and I can carry on a normal conversation with the spindle running and using a small bit - can't do that with a router. Also, as has been said about runout, the spindle is far, far more precise than a router will ever be.

    Like Richard said, you can control it via the VFD and just rock and roll from the start.

    David
    David
    CurlyWoodShop on Etsy, David Falkner on YouTube, difalkner on Instagram

  12. #12
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    Said above: "
    You can just use the integral vfd controls to turn the spindle on and off, control speed, and forward and reverse."
    True.

    That said, and this depends on the controller that you use, and how you are able to implement its discrete messaging and what machine actions occur after a "VFD event" happens you are afforded some real nice protections for the spindle. Which in most cases are the single most expensive piece on most CNC machines.

    There are dozens of alarms or monitors available, the ones I prefer to always use are:
    Spindle Alarm: signals if ANY fault is detected
    Spindle Thermal. Signals if spindle temp is too hot
    These signals will stop the machines motion when detected, allowing the operator to rectify any errors

    Up to Speed: Eliminates waiting # seconds for RPM spoolup
    Stopped: Eliminates waiting # seconds for spindle to stop before toolchange

    Adding these signals to the "Forward" (I disable reverse), analog speed control and a braking resistor, you get a good number of wires and programming additions to the VFD. But in the long run, most will view the additional security as "should be in there" for all but low end offerings

    VFD wiring example below:

    Hitachi FVD.jpg

    Gary Campbell
    CNC Replacement & Upgrade Controllers
    Custom 9012 Centroid ATC

  13. #13
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    So, Gary, the OP is considering a Stinger I SR-24. What are your thoughts in the context of that particular CNC machine?
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  14. #14
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    Jim...
    I am not familiar with the particulars of that model, but I will be at CAMaster doing a class nexxt week and I will sneak a peek at the controls.
    Gary Campbell
    CNC Replacement & Upgrade Controllers
    Custom 9012 Centroid ATC

  15. #15
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    Should be a similar situation to larger units, but yea...you'll have one right there in the room on day two to "fondle".
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

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