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Thread: Speedy 400 Ceramic tube replacement/refurb

  1. #31
    I don't think it's zero. You will need to put aside some money in the piggy bank for the expense of replacing the tube in ~5 years. In my example above, it's about a $1,000/year against the operation of a consumable. This is only a simple example, though.

  2. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Kev Williams View Post
    So am I understanding this right, that even the electronics in/on a ceramic laser can't be repaired?
    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Shepherd View Post
    Of course they can be repaired. Our lasers don’t owe us anything. They make us a lot of money. The Trotec rocked out $2000 worth of work on Friday. Not sure I’m going to complain too much about having to replace a known perishable item when it’s raking the money in for us.
    There were several mentions of 'the electronics go bad' and 'completely sealed' but not much about repairs- which is a good thing- so I was just asking!

    So then, more questions...

    being 'totally sealed', is the life span of the gas supposedly indefinite?

    And for the most part, aren't a laser tube's electronics be able to be repaired indefinitely?

    If yes to both of the above, then why would it be necessary, other than personal choice or an actual break of some sort, to ever replace a ceramic tube when electronic repairs are so much less expensive? Or metal tubes for that matter?

    --I may be coming off as snarky here, but that's not my intent, I consider these legitimate questions. Regardless of how much we do or don't 'owe to our machines', future maintenance and repair costs to our machinery ARE important, especially for someone with 15 machines to keep running! I've been in this business full time for 42 years, and I've only had 2 'major' part failures in all that time, the first (LS900 power supply) was exchanged for a rebuilt unit overnight, $1700 to my door; the second (IS7000 power supply) is in my rep's shop being repaired at his leisure while I'm using one of his spare's. I've been lasering since 2002 and have never had a tube failure. I did replace the tube in the ULS in 2005 just because a cheap rebuilt became available. Even my nearly 5 year old RECI hasn't lost a step. Knock on my head all of the above, if anyone's living on borrowed time...

    Keyword for me is 'rebuilt'. If it can't be rebuilt, I likely won't buy it. I realize all the ceramic tubes in service are essentially working prototypes, and the oldest ones are just barely reaching 'average' life-span age, so I'm not expecting firm answers to my questions.
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  3. #33
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    I thought the new ceramic tube was an improvement?

    Sorry Scott, but if its a new and improved tube and its more money, should it not be better? I just asked a simple question. No matter how much money its making you, its still taking money out of your bottom line.

    If my new $47,000 Chevy pickup engine goes bad at 75,000 miles.... its oh well you did get a lot of miles it will be just $6000 for a new engine. It was actually a friends 2012 Silverado and it was 130,000 miles.
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  4. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Shepherd View Post
    Use has little to do with the life. If I could locate the file that had the lifespan on it, I would post it here. It was from an advanced training seminar Universal put on years ago. There was a presentation that went through a lot of information and one of those slides was the bell curve of the lifespan. They talked in depth about what to expect, etc.

    Remember, statistics are just that. In order to get the curve, you have to have failures at 6 months and failures at 12 years. Neither of those failures in this normal, but that doesn't mean they didn't happen. There's a big difference in the personal experiences of a couple of users and statistics based on 1000's of users.
    Gotcha. I always understood that tubes degraded over time regardless of use, I also thought a less used machine would still likely outlive one that runs 10 hours a day. Good info. But if end of life is end of life (say 4-6 years), that's good info to know and should also be calculated when considering things like Trocare.
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  5. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Bill George View Post
    I thought the new ceramic tube was an improvement?

    Sorry Scott, but if its a new and improved tube and its more money, should it not be better? I just asked a simple question. No matter how much money its making you, its still taking money out of your bottom line.

    If my new $47,000 Chevy pickup engine goes bad at 75,000 miles.... its oh well you did get a lot of miles it will be just $6000 for a new engine. It was actually a friends 2012 Silverado and it was 130,000 miles.
    It's really simple Bill. If Chevy comes out with a "new, better" motor and someone you know has one that fails at 35,000 miles, then that doesn't make everyone ever made poorer quality than the previous motors. That's my point. The ceramic core tubes aren't "new". There was a company making them for years and years before Trotec took them on. Obviously they have data that shows higher performance.

    2 years ago, Universal doubled or tripled the pricing for recharging tubes. You used to be able to get a tube recharged for $1,200, which was 1/2 the cost of an Epilog replacement. Then they bumped that up to $2,400 or $3,000. They didn't change anything. It was the same tubes, no new tech. Epilog tubes can run you $5,000-6,000 as well.

    It's just a fact these days that tubes are expensive. If you want to compare price and life, then we'd have a fair comparison, but just throwing one event out and calling that the normal is not making much sense to me.
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  6. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Shepherd View Post
    ...Obviously they have data that shows higher performance...
    Can you expand on that?

  7. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt McCoy View Post
    Can you expand on that?
    Obviously, they wouldn't switch laser sources for an equal or lesser performing tube. That would be shooting yourself in the foot. You can see the benefits on their site : https://www.troteclaser.com/en-us/la...es/ceramicore/

    The fact remains there are a LOT of ceramic core tubes in use out there and we're not seeing any reports of premature failures popping up all over the place. When the Epilog Fusion came out, there were quite a few reports of people having issues with those tubes, the motherboards, etc. We're just not seeing any of that on here or on other Trotec related places.

    I suspect the cost for a 120W tube replacement from Epilog is about $5,000-6,000. That's my point. This is being treated like it's out of the ordinary and it's not. It's the same range as every other manufacturer.
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  8. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Shepherd View Post
    Obviously, they wouldn't switch laser sources for an equal or lesser performing tube. That would be shooting yourself in the foot. You can see the benefits on their site : https://www.troteclaser.com/en-us/la...es/ceramicore/

    The fact remains there are a LOT of ceramic core tubes in use out there and we're not seeing any reports of premature failures popping up all over the place. When the Epilog Fusion came out, there were quite a few reports of people having issues with those tubes, the motherboards, etc. We're just not seeing any of that on here or on other Trotec related places.

    I suspect the cost for a 120W tube replacement from Epilog is about $5,000-6,000. That's my point. This is being treated like it's out of the ordinary and it's not. It's the same range as every other manufacturer.
    Thanks for the link. In a previous post, you stated that there is no implied additional lifespan of newer ceramic tubes, however it's one of the listed benefits on the Trotec site. If it's normal that the ceramic tube fails at ~5 years (the same as the previous metal tube), but can only be repaired by the manufacturer, as opposed to having a 3rd party repair a metal tube for approximately half the cost, that might be something to consider in calculating the cost of ownership of the machine over its lifespan.

    I don't believe anyone has made a comparison to other manufacturers.

  9. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt McCoy View Post
    Thanks for the link. In a previous post, you stated that there is no implied additional lifespan of newer ceramic tubes, however it's one of the listed benefits on the Trotec site. If it's normal that the ceramic tube fails at ~5 years (the same as the previous metal tube), but can only be repaired by the manufacturer, as opposed to having a 3rd party repair a metal tube for approximately half the cost, that might be something to consider in calculating the cost of ownership of the machine over its lifespan.

    I don't believe anyone has made a comparison to other manufacturers.
    I've never once heard anyone say anything that is definitive for the lifespan of any laser (except the Chinese who promise 10,000 hours). There is no way to say one will or will not last a long time. I've seen people have them fail 1 month in and I've seen people with machines 15 years old with the original tube. Again, stating that someone had 1 tube fail at 6 1/2 years is less than a metal tube isn't accurate. If the normal lifespan for all metal tube lasers is 4-6 years, then at 6 1/2 years, it DID outlast the metal tube laser from a statistical standpoint.

    I'm still unsure how and what you are comparing to. This is 1 case. So what. One or two data points don't make a trend. In all the years this forum has been around, how many times have we seen "My Ceramic Core tube died" posts? To my knowledge, this is the first one. I'd say that's pretty remarkable and a heck of a track record, but that's all still conjecture because we don't know the real numbers of how many tubes are out there and what life they are experiencing.

    No one is saying you can't have it repaired by a 3rd party. What's being said is no one's tried. I wonder why no one's called a 3rd party to ask yet? Maybe because their tubes haven't failed yet?
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  10. #40
    Here's the image from the seminar in 2009.

    Lifespan.JPG
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  11. #41
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    Is it not true there are fewer ceramic tubes in operation, compared to metal RF tubes so there would be less failed? How many laser users or businesses are there who are not members of Sawmill Creek and we do not hear about?

    I would rather have a 6 year life projected tube that can be rebuilt or recharged for say $2000, than a ceramic one that needs to be replaced (so far) at double the cost for the same life span. Have the ceramic machines enhanced production in some way?
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  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill George View Post
    Is it not true there are fewer ceramic tubes in operation, compared to metal RF tubes so there would be less failed?
    Yes, so the failure quantity is 1, rate? Don't know

    How many laser users or businesses are there who are not members of Sawmill Creek and we do not hear about?
    I am sure there are many, but there are quite a few here so any failures would certainly be posted.

    I would rather have a 6 year life projected tube that can be rebuilt or recharged for say $2000, than a ceramic one that needs to be replaced (so far) at double the cost for the same life span.
    As mentioned previously, we have a data set of (1) so a single Trotec so far has needed a tube at 6-1/2 years and that is not a trend, it's a single failure. I guarantee that every other manufacturer has had multiple failures during that same time period, so where does the smart money lie?


    Have the ceramic machines enhanced production in some way?
    This is from the Trotec website, describing the Ceramicore tubes:

    100% Ceramic

    Trotec laser systems are equipped with a new line of CO2 laser sources from the US-based manufacturer Iradion Laser, Inc. The innovative and patented laser source concept stands for reliability, high engraving quality and longevity. The resonator body where the laser radiation is generated is made of 100% ceramic. This is unique in the industry.
    Perfect body

    Usually all-metal, and sometimes glass laser sources are used for laser processing. CeramiCore® technology totally redefines the basic laser source. The ceramic design gives tremendous benefits compared to all metal or glass lasers: There are no aluminum welds or sealings, which could leak over time. This is guaranteed by the production process. Two ceramic half shells are fused together to form the resonator during manufacturing. The ceramic resonator is fired at 800 degrees and the burning process effectively cleans the interior surface immaculately.
    Pure gas composition

    All of the optical elements are glued onto the ceramic, the electrodes are mounted on the outside of the resonator and the gas is excited through the ceramic body. This means that there are no interior metal surfaces that could damage the gas mixture's equilibrium. The result is a pure gas composition over the whole lifetime of the laser source. Longest lifetime is guaranteed.
    Fastest pulse speeds for highest engraving quality

    Ceramic lasers can be operated at much greater pressures resulting in faster pulse speeds, which in turn are critical for high speed engraving and marking applications. Laser users can benefit from highest engraving quality. Also, the electronics' innovative architecture features a lower energy consumption. Benchmark tests show a reduction of up to 30%.
    Seamless integration

    The laser sources have been perfectly optimized for Trotec laser systems to maximize the CeramiCore® technology's benefits.
    About Iradion

    Iradion is a US-based manufacturer of OEM laser sources with 15 years of experience in developing and manufacturing laser source technology for sophisticated applications like ceramic scribing. Iradion’s research efforts are fully focused on their groundbreaking ceramic technology. Initially developed for one of the world’s biggest defense and security corporations, Iradion’s laser source technology was designed to provide precision, stability and longevity in the harshest environments possible.

  13. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Bill George View Post
    I would rather have a 6 year life projected tube that can be rebuilt or recharged for say $2000, than a ceramic one that needs to be replaced (so far) at double the cost for the same life span. Have the ceramic machines enhanced production in some way?
    And who said you can't have it repaired for $2000? You heard a dealer price of $4,000 for a 120W tube to be repaired. Like I said, name me any other manufacturer who will rebuild a 120W laser for $4,000. Not happening. There's been exactly zero posts from anyone who's actually called a 3rd party and said they couldn't repair the electronics on one. Zero. So it's pretty hard to say that it's more expensive when there's not one person who's posted the price of the 3rd party repair.

    Once someone posts it, then we'll be able to compare the following :

    Manufacturer --------- Tube Mfg------------Cost to Refurbish at OEM------------Cost to Refurb at 3rd Party

    Epilog
    Universal
    Trotec

    Then we'll know exactly what the cost of ownership actually is. Until then, I'm still not seeing a shred of evidence that it is or is not more expensive to have a Ceramic Core tube.
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  14. #44
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    Just for the record............
    I had to replace my Ceramicore tube last year. Laser was manufactured in 2012 so 5 years life on original.
    There are many more that failed that we on SMC do not know about.
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  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Lenkic View Post
    Just for the record............
    I had to replace my Ceramicore tube last year. Laser was manufactured in 2012 so 5 years life on original.
    There are many more that failed that we on SMC do not know about.
    My point....
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