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Thread: Speedy 400 Ceramic tube replacement/refurb

  1. #76
    To expound on Steve & Dave's 'assessments': The only reason we're seeing "a potential problem" is simply because those who have had problems, and one place that repairs the things, have made us aware OF the problems.

    But what we're NOT aware of, is total number of similar units that DON'T have a problem!

    It's a simple fact of life that we humans are quick to let other humans know when we think we've wasted our hard earned money on a piece-O-krap product, but how many of us ever just go online to proclaim "hey, my Samsung fridge is still keeping my food cold!" --- --- this is why internet sellers BEG for reviews, positive OR negative, and why the positive reviews- usually- overwhelm the negative ones!

    So then, of the few failures reported so far, about all we can extrapolate from the reported data is: some of many tubes have failed; the percentage of failures to non-failures is unknown; the tube life at the failure may or may not be within "normal limits", and the common type of failure may or may not be considered normal... all in all, at this point in time, statistically insignificant is my call
    ========================================
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  2. #77
    Just an FYI , I just completed machining,testing,refilling and charting several Iradion model 156 lasers. I found the following. Yes they can be refilled/Remanufactred. We had an influx of them come into our facility and we found they are very stable lasers, Robust and have a lifetime of equivalent metal RF tubes. They also fail for similar reason. We did some gas analysis and find the Gas still will imbalance over time and even though the tube body is ceramic , they still use technology equivalent to Epilog and Synrad for sealing methods. It gets a bit technical but in short, yes We can refill and repair these lasers. Our refilling shows there is lots of buffer in power. A Model 156 before refill was 32 watts after refill 94 watts. I am at home now but I believe the 156 is rated 60 watts. I knew the inventor some 30 years ago so I am familiar with the technology behind them. So the technology is well established. If anyone has questions please dont hesitate to contact myself or Jean F.

  3. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Null View Post
    Mike

    I should probably have said noisier as I don't have any idea about the power consumption of one versus the other.
    RF travels through ceramics more easily than it does through metal so the input power / conversion factor will be better, the problem will be getting rid of the excess converted heat
    You did what !

  4. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Philip Fostini View Post
    Just an FYI , I just completed machining,testing,refilling and charting several Iradion model 156 lasers. I found the following. Yes they can be refilled/Remanufactred. We had an influx of them come into our facility and we found they are very stable lasers, Robust and have a lifetime of equivalent metal RF tubes. They also fail for similar reason. We did some gas analysis and find the Gas still will imbalance over time and even though the tube body is ceramic , they still use technology equivalent to Epilog and Synrad for sealing methods. It gets a bit technical but in short, yes We can refill and repair these lasers. Our refilling shows there is lots of buffer in power. A Model 156 before refill was 32 watts after refill 94 watts. I am at home now but I believe the 156 is rated 60 watts. I knew the inventor some 30 years ago so I am familiar with the technology behind them. So the technology is well established. If anyone has questions please dont hesitate to contact myself or Jean F.
    Folks tend to ask me questions and seem to think I know what I'm on about...forget that... Phillip and Jean are Mr & Mrs laser...I am just the student...these folks are the professors (and Hiya Phil )
    You did what !

  5. #80
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    Kevin, there's often too much emotion in our opinions and you are definitely the voice of reason here, thank you!
    Philip, good info, thanks for your input.
    Dave, you have done much to help and educate the less knowledgeable, you're appreciated more than you know!
    Universal PLS 6.120D 75 watt
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  6. #81
    Dave and his 'I am just the student' comment makes me chuckle-- my wife's eldest son attempted college a few times, he's always been a 'basic' electrical whiz who simply wanted to learn more. After 3 tries he finally gave up college because the teachers, who quickly figured out his abilities, kept having him teach class while they went out for lunch or a car wash!

    That's the kind of 'student' Dave is, and I'm very humbled by his knowledge
    ========================================
    ELEVEN - rotary cutter tool machines
    FOUR - CO2 lasers
    THREE- make that FOUR now - fiber lasers
    ONE - vinyl cutter
    CASmate, Corel, Gravostyle


  7. #82
    Thanks folks....I know Jean and Philip and please believe me, they are orders of magnitude above anything I would ever consider debating. They are top tier experts in their fields without any doubt.

    Outside of academia there are 4 people I sit up and listen to, Phil, Jean, Tweakie and Vasily Basov
    You did what !

  8. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Philip Fostini View Post
    ...we found they [Iradion ceramic] are very stable lasers, Robust and have a lifetime of equivalent metal RF tubes. They also fail for similar reason.
    Trotec says:

    "The result is a pure gas composition over the whole lifetime of the laser source. Longest lifetime is guaranteed."

    How much more do the Ceramicore tubes cost?

  9. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt McCoy View Post
    Trotec says:

    "The result is a pure gas composition over the whole lifetime of the laser source. Longest lifetime is guaranteed."

    How much more do the Ceramicore tubes cost?
    They don't cost anything more because that's all they offer. I'll be able to speak about the higher fan noise in about 1 hour, as I'm installing a new machine at the moment. It'll sit next to a 9 year old one, so I'll have a good comparison. It has the same number of fans on the tube and the same configuration of the fans, so maybe they are a different speed? I'll know shortly when I power it up later today.
    Lasers : Trotec Speedy 300 75W, Trotec Speedy 300 80W, Galvo Fiber Laser 20W
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    Real name Steve but that name was taken on the forum. Used Middle name. Call me Steve or Scott, doesn't matter.

  10. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Shepherd View Post
    They don't cost anything more because that's all they offer...
    Did the price point on the machine increase after switching to Ceramicore tubes?

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt McCoy View Post
    Did the price point on the machine increase after switching to Ceramicore tubes?
    That's pretty much impossible to answer since the price anyone pays is entirely dependent on their negotiation skills and the vendor selling the laser. I don't know if Trotec publishes MSRP or not, but even if that changed when they transitioned to Ceramicore tubes, it could have been a number of other factors influencing the price.

  12. #87
    I recently purchased a 120 watt Speedy 400. One of the deciding factors was the ceramic core tube. I did however receive conflicting information. My Trotec rep told me they could not be recharged, however Phil from Evergreen quoted me $1200 to recharge that tube. I hope it's several years before I have to cross that bridge to find out.

  13. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Hair View Post
    That's pretty much impossible to answer since the price anyone pays is entirely dependent on their negotiation skills and the vendor selling the laser. I don't know if Trotec publishes MSRP or not, but even if that changed when they transitioned to Ceramicore tubes, it could have been a number of other factors influencing the price.
    Sure -- I understand and respect that. Trotec's haggle business model intentionally obfuscates the price point as a strategy (Epilog, Universal, and others do this too, so not picking on Trotec). This makes it more difficult for potential customers to be completely informed, and perhaps there is also some opaqueness that's also confusing some reps, that might be causing them to pass along bad info (i.e., can the ceramic tubes be refilled/re-manufactured?)

    Trotec is marketing and branding its CeramiCore laser for its longer lifespan, but that may not necessarily be definitive. The SMC conventional wisdom is that it's the electronics that usually fail on a RF laser, not the loss of gas that a CeramiCore design is marketed to help prevent.

    The questions remain: Did the MSRP increase due to the switch to a new-technology ceramic laser and was the warranty extended, since Trotec guaranteed a longer-life tube? Of course, this discussion does not consider any additional advertised benefits of a ceramic laser, such as stability, increased pulse speeds, efficiency, etc.
    Last edited by Matt McCoy; 07-25-2018 at 3:18 PM.

  14. #89
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    Matt,

    I doubt that your interpretation of the policies concerning price points is accurate. Contacting the manufacturer is always the best policy when anyone is seeking accurate price information or specifications and I have not seen anyone post here who has quoted information obtained directly from any manufacturer that has not been accurate.

    The lifespan of ceramic core technology is still undetermined in my opinion, there has not been enough time or data collected to provide a definitive answer to the question. The technical advantages have been proven, ceramic tubes are faster and more productive IMO. Concerning the MSRP price adjustment when Trotec switched to ceramic core tubes I can't answer but I can say that I purchased a 75 watt Speedy 300 for the sign shop at CNU and several months later I bought my 80 watt ceramic core machine for my sign shop. Although I can't remember the exact price for the CNU machine I don't remember it being significantly different from the price I paid for mine. Of course there is also the difference in how any machine is configured and the options involved that makes it difficult to do any kind of comparative shopping.

  15. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Outten View Post
    Matt,

    I doubt that your interpretation of the policies concerning price points is accurate. Contacting the manufacturer is always the best policy when anyone is seeking accurate price information or specifications and I have not seen anyone post here who has quoted information obtained directly from any manufacturer that has not been accurate.
    Hi Keith: To be clear, I'm not suggesting dishonesty, just that posts in this thread would indicate that some representatives of Trotec may or may not know if their ceramic lasers can be recharged by a 3rd party and the expected lifespan of their tubes. Since the price of a new Trotex machine can vary thousands of dollars between customers and they don't post MSRP, it puts potential buyers at a disadvantage.

    The lifespan of ceramic core technology is still undetermined in my opinion, there has not been enough time or data collected to provide a definitive answer to the question. The technical advantages have been proven, ceramic tubes are faster and more productive IMO. Concerning the MSRP price adjustment when Trotec switched to ceramic core tubes I can't answer but I can say that I purchased a 75 watt Speedy 300 for the sign shop at CNU and several months later I bought my 80 watt ceramic core machine for my sign shop. Although I can't remember the exact price for the CNU machine I don't remember it being significantly different from the price I paid for mine. Of course there is also the difference in how any machine is configured and the options involved that makes it difficult to do any kind of comparative shopping.
    That's good info -- thank you. Do you recall if the warranty was extended?

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