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Thread: Speedy 400 Ceramic tube replacement/refurb

  1. #46
    And mine as well. I know 1 guy who has 2 Epilog Fusions and he's replaced the tubes about 4-5 times in less than 5 years. Okay, so what's that prove? Statistically, nothing.
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    Real name Steve but that name was taken on the forum. Used Middle name. Call me Steve or Scott, doesn't matter.

  2. #47
    This is only anecdote, and I love my Speedy, but it was definitely promoted that the ceramic tube had a higher life expectancy than other manufacturers of tubes. I still would have bought Trotec anyway, but I did consider it a plus. That's why I asked my original question.

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Shepherd View Post
    And who said you can't have it repaired for $2000? You heard a dealer price of $4,000 for a 120W tube to be repaired. Like I said, name me any other manufacturer who will rebuild a 120W laser for $4,000. Not happening. There's been exactly zero posts from anyone who's actually called a 3rd party and said they couldn't repair the electronics on one. Zero. So it's pretty hard to say that it's more expensive when there's not one person who's posted the price of the 3rd party repair.

    Once someone posts it, then we'll be able to compare the following :

    Manufacturer --------- Tube Mfg------------Cost to Refurbish at OEM------------Cost to Refurb at 3rd Party

    Epilog
    Universal
    Trotec

    Then we'll know exactly what the cost of ownership actually is. Until then, I'm still not seeing a shred of evidence that it is or is not more expensive to have a Ceramic Core tube.
    Steve, see my post at #12 about my experience, I can fill in one line here.

    Manufacturer --------- Tube Mfg------------Cost to Refurbish at OEM------------Cost to Refurb at 3rd Party

    Epilog
    Universal---------------Universal 60w----------ULS $2150----------------------------Evergreen Laser $750
    Trotec
    Universal PLS 6.120D 75 watt
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  4. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Shepherd View Post
    I've never once heard anyone say anything that is definitive for the lifespan of any laser...If the normal lifespan for all metal tube lasers is 4-6 years, then at 6 1/2 years, it DID outlast the metal tube laser from a statistical standpoint...
    The length of time the manufacturers provide a warranty on the tube is the definitive lifespan of the tube. Everything else is a cherry on top. Back-of-napkin math: (Just from this thread) 1 ceramic tube failed at 1 year (replaced under warranty), 1 tube failed at 4 years, 1 tube failed at 6.5 years, and 1 tube failed at 5 years. This averages out to 4.125 years and is about the same stated lifespan of the previous Trotec metal tubes, I believe. So, the only comparison is to the current generation of tech (ceramic) to the previous (metal) to consider the current cost of ownership on a Trotec machine. If a metal tube could be serviced by a reputable 3rd party for 1/2 to 1/3 the cost, for about the same service life, the cost of ownership has increased. This does not consider other advantages a ceramic tube might offer nor the failure rate of the Trotec metal tubes.

    No one is saying you can't have it repaired by a 3rd party. What's being said is no one's tried. I wonder why no one's called a 3rd party to ask yet? Maybe because their tubes haven't failed yet?
    I'm not sure if Evergreen or Photovac service Iradion ceramic tubes for Trotec, but neither of their websites list Iradion as a manufacture of CO2 tubes they repair.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill George View Post
    ...I would rather have a 6 year life projected tube that can be rebuilt or recharged for say $2000, than a ceramic one that needs to be replaced (so far) at double the cost for the same life span...
    ^^^

  5. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt McCoy View Post
    The length of time the manufacturers provide a warranty on the tube is the definitive lifespan of the tube. Everything else is a cherry on top. Back-of-napkin math: (Just from this thread) 1 ceramic tube failed at 1 year (replaced under warranty), 1 tube failed at 4 years, 1 tube failed at 6.5 years, and 1 tube failed at 5 years. This averages out to 4.125 years and is about the same stated lifespan of the previous Trotec metal tubes, I believe. So, the only comparison is to the current generation of tech (ceramic) to the previous (metal) to consider the current cost of ownership on a Trotec machine. If a metal tube could be serviced by a reputable 3rd party for 1/2 to 1/3 the cost, for about the same service life, the cost of ownership has increased. This does not consider other advantages a ceramic tube might offer nor the failure rate of the Trotec metal tubes.



    I'm not sure if Evergreen or Photovac service Iradion ceramic tubes for Trotec, but neither of their websites list Iradion as a manufacture of CO2 tubes they repair.



    ^^^
    Then don't buy one.

    Again, posting 3-4 bits of data doesn't mean much. In your example if we had those 3-4 and then we had 250 that are out there still in service then it would raise that average up in a hurry.

    I could easily post that the one Epilog user I mentioned that had 4 tubes go bad in 4 years would show an average of 1 year. So are we to assume that the average lifespan of an Epilog Fusion tube is 1 year? That would be ridiculous to suggest.

    Right, you aren't sure if they repair them, so you can't say they are more expensive to own. They may be. They may not be. We don't know at this point because no one's checked. Once someone does, then we'll know.

    But to try and extrapolate average lifespans of tubes from users on the internet and not having any numbers on how many samples are out there that are still running isn't very productive unless you're looking for an internet conversation because that's about all it is without the data from the manufacturers.
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    Real name Steve but that name was taken on the forum. Used Middle name. Call me Steve or Scott, doesn't matter.

  6. #51
    The length of time the manufacturers provide a warranty on the tube is the definitive lifespan of the tube.
    That's Hogwash!
    Mike Null

    St. Louis Laser, Inc.

    Trotec Speedy 300, 80 watt
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  7. #52
    Actually Mike, it's not hogwash, it's a cold hard fact, most if not all tubes come with a warranty which IS the "lifespan" as defined by it's manufacturer. After the warranty period the mfr's commitment is done, therefore the amount of time a tube may live beyond the warranty IS a 'cherry on top' as Matt put it. Obviously, "actual" and "definitive" lifespans aren't the same. But just as a personal observation () I would think that if Iradion believes it's ceramic laser to have a longer 'typical' lifespan than their competitors, that they would at least up the warranty period 50% to 18 months...

    FWIW, the 'big 3' warranty's:

    Iradion warranty:

    Equipment manufactured by Iradion is guaranteed to be free of defects in materials and workmanship for a period of one year (12 Months) from the date of purchase. Warranty does not apply to any defect caused by negligence, misuse (including environmental factors), accident, alteration, or improper maintenance. Iradion will pay round trip shipping using Iradion's preferred shipment methods for any approved warranty claim made within 45 days of receipt of goods. After 45 days but within the warranty period, Iradion will pay the cost of shipping any repaired or replaced unit to Customer, but Customer must pay the cost of shipping to Iradion. In order to maintain this warranty, Customer must ensure that all merchandise is operated under the conditions set forth in the applicable documentation and that only authorized Iradion replacement parts are used. This warranty is void if these requirements are not met. Iradion will not be responsible for any warranty or representation made by any third party.

    Synrad warranty:



    • Standard Product Warranty on Lasers and Components - One (1) year
    • All lasers rated at 100 Watts or above and all ti-Series lasers - Two (2) years
    • Synrad’s 48-1 10W laser - Three (3) years


    Coherent warranty:

    Warranty Information for Lasers
    All electronic and mechanical parts are warranted against defects in materials and workmanship, under normal use, for a twelve (12) month warranty period. The obligation of Coherent is limited to repairing or replacing equipment that proves to be defective during the warranty period without charge. Warranties do not cover damages due to misuse, negligence, or accidents due to installations, repairs or adjustments not specifically authorized by a certified Coherent engineer. Coherent, Inc. will, at its option, repair or replace any product or component found to be defective during the warranty period. This warranty applies only to the original purchaser and is not transferable.
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  8. #53
    A warranty does not define the lifespan of anything I can think of. It is purely a protection period by its definition. The real fact is that nobody, in my 20 years in the business, has been able to identify the life of any tube. If I were to make a judgment based on my experience I would think that it's in the area of 6 to 7 years on average. But if you said 5 years I would accept that as well.

    I have had 3 machines and replaced two tubes. One after 36 months (in warranty) and one after more than 8 years. The one I replaced after 8 years is still running 4 plus years later. What's that prove? Nothing.
    Mike Null

    St. Louis Laser, Inc.

    Trotec Speedy 300, 80 watt
    Woodworking shop CLTT and Laser Sublimation
    Evolis Card Printer
    CorelDraw X5

  9. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Shepherd View Post
    ...I could easily post that the one Epilog user I mentioned that had 4 tubes go bad in 4 years would show an average of 1 year. So are we to assume that the average lifespan of an Epilog Fusion tube is 1 year? That would be ridiculous to suggest.
    Why do you keep pivoting to Epilog? The discussion is real-talk about Trotec (ceramic) vs. Trotec (metal) and their lifespan/repair cost.

    Right, you aren't sure if they repair them, so you can't say they are more expensive to own. They may be. They may not be. We don't know at this point because no one's checked. Once someone does, then we'll know.
    That means that the gentleman that started this thread is still looking at $4,200 + installation for a new ceramic tube at this time.

    ...without the data from the manufacturers.
    When will that be available? I've read back about ten years here, and the SMC consensus is that RF metal tubes last ~4-6 years. What has been shown in this thread is that ceramic tubes last ~4-6 years.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Null View Post
    That's Hogwash!
    Thanks for the info, Mike.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Null View Post
    A warranty does not define the lifespan of anything I can think of. It is purely a protection period by its definition. The real fact is that nobody, in my 20 years in the business, has been able to identify the life of any tube. If I were to make a judgment based on my experience I would think that it's in the area of 6 to 7 years on average. But if you said 5 years I would accept that as well.

    I have had 3 machines and replaced two tubes. One after 36 months (in warranty) and one after more than 8 years. The one I replaced after 8 years is still running 4 plus years later. What's that prove? Nothing.
    Your experience would put tube life at 5.5 years, at this point.

  10. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt McCoy View Post
    Why do you keep pivoting to Epilog? The discussion is real-talk about Trotec (ceramic) vs. Trotec (metal) and their lifespan/repair cost.
    Because some of the logic being used is nuts and I'm using Epilog because it shows how crazy some of this conversation is.

    You keep implying that the $4,200 cost of a 120w ceramic tube refurb is more expensive than a non ceramic core tube. I keep asking you to prove it. To date, there's been not one shred of evidence that shows it is more expensive. Yet it keeps getting repeated as fact, that it doesn't last longer and it's more expensive.

    Factually, it might be. Factually it might last 30% less time and cost 50% more to refurb and there may not be a single 3rd party company that refurbs them, however, we don't know any of that because all we have at this point is one data point. The price. We can't compare the price to anyone else, we can't compare the price to any 3rd party service, we can't compare the life, from a statistical standpoint to anything else, but comments keep getting made like "why would you put a ceramic core tube in if it last the same time and costs more?". Costs more than what? That's my point. In order to say X costs more than Y, then we have to have more information than the cost of X.

    The math logic being used is crazy. Take 3-4 people's posts and averaging them calling that the average expected life of a tube is nuts. That's why I used the Epilog example to show how that flawed logic in math could make it look like Epilog has a very serious problem.

    Like I have said repeatedly. It might cost more and last less time, however, we don't know because we don't have the data. The data might show that's the case, the data might show that's dead wrong. Until we have actual data, then this is all just armchair quarterbacking.
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  11. #56
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    Just talked to Evergreen Laser, turns out they do repair Iradion lasers, they said they have seen about a dozen and most just needed a gas recharge, this is really interesting news as we have all been assuming that the since they are marketed as being superior to metal tubes and are not supposed to leak gas, this seems to not be the case, they are definitely leaking gas, not an electronic failure like we suspected. Evergreen quoted $1050 for a 60 watt Iradion re-gas and for the OP, 120 watt would be a bit higher, approximately $1500. Beats $4200! This is a bit disappointing news however as it seems to be a bit of a tarnish to the Trotec reputation as the best of the best and Iradion/ceramic cores as a superior, longer lasting solution to metal tubes. I understand it's not definitive proof of an overall picture but the number of known failures just went up and the appearance of a possible gas failure problem! Also interesting that although we have a large user base here, we only hear about a small percentage of the actual problems that exist. I suppose more time will tell.
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  12. #57
    Interesting Paul! Thanks for taking the time to call and find out. I just recommended Evergreen to someone yesterday. Interesting that they say they replaced the gas. It was my understanding that the tubes were completely sealed from a heat process, no actual seals. So there would be nothing that could leak unless the "weld" or "fusion" of the ceramic failed. Interesting.

    $1,200 for a 120W tube recharge. WOW....that's cheap!

    Thanks again for posting this. I wonder how many metal tubes he's replaced the gas in (as a comparison for sample sizes).
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  13. #58
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    Steve, yeah it's really strange because the whole marketing thing is that it's not supposed to leak! Evergreen said that there is a valve that is used to fill the gas through and that is likely where it is leaking from. It would be nice hear from an expert as to why this is a problem. Dave Sheldrake, I would love to hear what you think?
    Universal PLS 6.120D 75 watt
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  14. #59
    I won't beat the lifespan dead horse, but I will say this: of course ceramic tubes can leak, likely thru the glue that holds the optics in place. It is nice to know they can be re-gassed
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  15. #60
    Here's the blurb from Iradion's site :

    Screen Shot 2018-07-16 at 3.57.52 PM.png
    Lasers : Trotec Speedy 300 75W, Trotec Speedy 300 80W, Galvo Fiber Laser 20W
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