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Thread: Speedy 400 Ceramic tube replacement/refurb

  1. #61
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
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    3,356
    and more from Iradion "How long do they last?

    Iradion’s patented Ceramic Core CO2 laser are intended to last for many years without any required maintenance or service. Individual usage/applications may vary but our lasers should be worry free for 5 years or longer."
    I have done so much with so little for so long, that I can do almost anything with practically nothing...

    Trotec Speedy 400 80 watt 8/2015
    G. Weike LF-30, 30 watt galvo fiber - 1/2016
    G. Weike LF-30, 30 watt galvo fiber - 3/2015
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  2. #62
    From Trotec, note the red text: If they can figure out something better than "glued onto the ceramic", they'll have the perfect tube!


    100% Ceramic

    Trotec laser systems are equipped with a new line of CO2 laser sources from the US-based manufacturer Iradion Laser, Inc. The innovative and patented laser source concept stands for reliability, high engraving quality and longevity. The resonator body where the laser radiation is generated is made of 100% ceramic. This is unique in the industry.

    Perfect body

    Usually all-metal, and sometimes glass laser sources are used for laser processing. CeramiCore® technology totally redefines the basic laser source. The ceramic design gives tremendous benefits compared to all metal or glass lasers: There are no aluminum welds or sealings, which could leak over time. This is guaranteed by the production process. Two ceramic half shells are fused together to form the resonator during manufacturing. The ceramic resonator is fired at 800 degrees and the burning process effectively cleans the interior surface immaculately.
    Pure gas composition

    All of the optical elements are glued onto the ceramic, the electrodes are mounted on the outside of the resonator and the gas is excited through the ceramic body. This means that there are no interior metal surfaces that could damage the gas mixture's equilibrium. The result is a pure gas composition over the whole lifetime of the laser source. Longest lifetime is guaranteed.

    Fastest pulse speeds for highest engraving quality

    Ceramic lasers can be operated at much greater pressures resulting in faster pulse speeds, which in turn are critical for high speed engraving and marking applications. Laser users can benefit from highest engraving quality. Also, the electronics' innovative architecture features a lower energy consumption. Benchmark tests show a reduction of up to 30%.
    Seamless integration

    The laser sources have been perfectly optimized for Trotec laser systems to maximize the CeramiCore® technology's benefits.
    About Iradion

    Iradion is a US-based manufacturer of OEM laser sources with 15 years of experience in developing and manufacturing laser source technology for sophisticated applications like ceramic scribing. Iradion’s research efforts are fully focused on their groundbreaking ceramic technology. Initially developed for one of the world’s biggest defense and security corporations, Iradion’s laser source technology was designed to provide precision, stability and longevity in the harshest environments possible.
    4 LASERS -- Gravograph LS900 -- GCC Explorer -- Triumph 1390 -- Triumph Galvo Fiber
    10 CNC ROTARY ENGRAVERS -- NH C2000 -- NH V3200 -- NH V3400 x2 -- NH V3400CL rotary -- NH V5000 -- NH V5000XT x2 -- Gravograph IS400 -- Gravograph IS7000
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    Extraction: 3 -HF 'green' blowers, 1 HF 'big' blower
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  3. #63
    I don't see an issue with the gluing of the optics. That may well be an advantage.

    But Iradion says no leaks and Evergreen says they leak. ????
    Mike Null

    St. Louis Laser, Inc.

    Trotec Speedy 300, 80 watt
    Woodworking shop CLTT and Laser Sublimation
    Evolis Card Printer
    CorelDraw X5

  4. #64
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
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    Englewood, CO
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    465
    The design makes sense in theory, that metal tubes tend to leak through the welds and therefor reducing the number of potential leak points with ceramic should equal less leaks. We don't know for sure yet but seems as if there is a higher number of ceramic leaks than there should be according to Evergreen. Would be interested to hear what Dave Sheldrake has to say, Dave where are you?
    Universal PLS 6.120D 75 watt
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  5. #65
    "Glue" is the weak link.

    Example: many people believe fiberglass boats are waterproof. They're not. No matter how many gallons of epoxy resin is used in the gelcoat and fiberglass construction of boats, you can't just leave a 'glass boat in the water indefinitely because water WILL eventually penetrate the gelcoat and fiberglass...

    Occam's razor? If a ceramic tube is as completely sealed as they claim, then the likely explanation for the gas escaping is thru the glue holding the optics in place...
    4 LASERS -- Gravograph LS900 -- GCC Explorer -- Triumph 1390 -- Triumph Galvo Fiber
    10 CNC ROTARY ENGRAVERS -- NH C2000 -- NH V3200 -- NH V3400 x2 -- NH V3400CL rotary -- NH V5000 -- NH V5000XT x2 -- Gravograph IS400 -- Gravograph IS7000
    Vinyl: NH 20" vinyl cutter
    Extraction: 3 -HF 'green' blowers, 1 HF 'big' blower
    4 -air compressors, 3 -drill presses, 3 -grinders, 3 -shears, 4 -saws, mini-lathe


  6. #66
    It's my understanding that the majority of RF tube issues are related to electronic failure, not loss of gas.

  7. #67
    Just for reference, I had a PM from an Epilog person, the cost to recharge a 120W is $2,195 at this point in time.
    Lasers : Trotec Speedy 300 75W, Universal PLS4.60 with Rotary Attachment
    Printers : Mimaki UJF-6042 UV Flatbed Printer , HP Designjet L26500 61" Wide Format Latex Printer,
    Ricoh Dye Sublimation Printer, Summa S140-T 48" Vinyl Plotter
    Router : ShopBot 48" x 96" CNC Router Rotary Engravers : (2) Xenetech XOT 16 x 25 Rotary Engravers

    Real name Steve but that name was taken on the forum. Used Middle name. Call me Steve or Scott, doesn't matter.

  8. #68
    Yes they do leak, yes it is from the bond on the optics and at the gas valving.It's why big industrial's tend to be flowing gas types not sealed units. (it also means you can vary the gas mix)(There is actually very little CO2 in a CO2 laser)
    Poof! and just like magic the shop keeper dissappeared

  9. #69
    It's also not really anything new, in the late 70's ION lasers used ceramic coated metal tubes, all the worlds industrial's at the upper end use aluminium with a forced ceramic coating on the inside walls, there's a good reason for it, Ceramics don't conduct heat very well (hence why the space shuttle had tiles on it) where as Aluminium does (hence why it's terrible stuff to laser cut) stable temperatures and heat removal are the two biggest considerations in laser technology. solid Ceramic cores sound great but the reality is there isn't a huge benefit to it and in fact there are some draw backs.

    Both the ABL and current AA lasers systems used/use metal cores that are oxidised to form an aluminium oxide coating (Al^2O^3), because the most stable Oxidation state of Aluminium is +3 (The inert pair effect)
    Poof! and just like magic the shop keeper dissappeared

  10. #70
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Englewood, CO
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    465
    Dave, thanks for educating us! It is a bit disappointing to find out that it's all marketing hype, after watching the Trotec video one would think this is meant to revolutionize the industry but it seems more like one of those ideas that costs more than existing technology but just doesn't work any better! You mention there are some drawback to the Ceramic Cores, what else is there other than the gas leaking? And as long as this technology has been around why can't they seem to improve it to allow the tubes to last longer than 5-6 years? I think I know the answer, I just hope it's not true!
    Universal PLS 6.120D 75 watt
    MutiCam Apex CNC 4'x8' w 6 bit TC.
    EnrRoute 6 Pro 3d software.
    Vision 2550 Rotary Engraver.


  11. #71
    Biggest problem is heat management in any laser core, ceramic doesn't conduct heat well at all, it's strong and you can get some very high temperature ceramics that will stand thousands of degree's but you have to get rid of that heat somewhere, Conduction, Convection and Radiation are the three ways of doing it. With ceramics you reduce the efficiency of the conduction and convection modes.

    You can make core last longer than 5 - 6 years but the issue is cost over effect, it's the same reason there is no such thing as pure aluminium, the cost to remove the last 0.1% of contamination is more than the cost of removing the first 99.9%. It's also bad economics, making a product with a really long MTBF is self defeating. Ideally it's good sense to make something that has a decent(acceptable) life time but will fail eventually so you can get repeat business.

    Laser cores are physically violent environments, lasers have tended to move forward by means of evolution rather than revolution and I can't really see much change to that in future unless the laws of Physics change
    Poof! and just like magic the shop keeper dissappeared

  12. #72
    I appreciate Dave's expertise and input and I am not disputing any of his remarks. But it is premature to judge the average life of the Iradion tubes that Trotec is using. They just haven't been out long enough to make a call.

    Keep in mind that a few years ago there were 4 tube suppliers not including Iradion. Deos was then bought by Coherent and Synrad was bought by GSI. During that time both ULS and Epilog made the decision to build their own tubes and a little later Trotec decided that Iradion was their best option.

    That tells me that the metal tube suppliers became too difficult to deal with and the laser mfrs felt compelled to seek an alternative.

    As a Trotec owner, and a very happy one, I have seen nothing that would cause me concern at this point.

    I concur with Dave that they do run hotter as I believe Trotec has added another fan or a higher powered one to facilitate cooling. My belief is that there is more fan noise with this machine than my previous one which had a Coherent tube.
    Mike Null

    St. Louis Laser, Inc.

    Trotec Speedy 300, 80 watt
    Woodworking shop CLTT and Laser Sublimation
    Evolis Card Printer
    CorelDraw X5

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Null View Post
    ...I concur with Dave that they do run hotter as I believe Trotec has added another fan or a higher powered one to facilitate cooling. My belief is that there is more fan noise with this machine than my previous one which had a Coherent tube.
    That's interesting because Trotec says: "Also, the electronics' innovative architecture features a lower energy consumption. Benchmark tests show a reduction of up to 30%."

    https://www.troteclaser.com/en-us/la...es/ceramicore/

  14. #74
    Mike

    I should probably have said noisier as I don't have any idea about the power consumption of one versus the other.
    Mike Null

    St. Louis Laser, Inc.

    Trotec Speedy 300, 80 watt
    Woodworking shop CLTT and Laser Sublimation
    Evolis Card Printer
    CorelDraw X5

  15. #75
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Englewood, CO
    Posts
    465
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Null View Post
    I appreciate Dave's expertise and input and I am not disputing any of his remarks. But it is premature to judge the average life of the Iradion tubes that Trotec is using. They just haven't been out long enough to make a call.

    Keep in mind that a few years ago there were 4 tube suppliers not including Iradion. Deos was then bought by Coherent and Synrad was bought by GSI. During that time both ULS and Epilog made the decision to build their own tubes and a little later Trotec decided that Iradion was their best option.

    That tells me that the metal tube suppliers became too difficult to deal with and the laser mfrs felt compelled to seek an alternative.

    As a Trotec owner, and a very happy one, I have seen nothing that would cause me concern at this point.

    I concur with Dave that they do run hotter as I believe Trotec has added another fan or a higher powered one to facilitate cooling. My belief is that there is more fan noise with this machine than my previous one which had a Coherent tube.
    Mike, I think that's a good assessment, thanks. My concern is that the Iradion tubes are marketed as being longer lasting at least as far as gas leaks are concerned, (see Steve's post #60) and have superior quality, (see post #42), I know there's not enough evidence yet to make a definitive statement but it seems like the evidence is pointing to a potential problem. After talking to Evergreen laser they say they are seeing a majority of gas leak failures. With the increased cost of the Iradion tubes to both purchase and repair, this bothers me, why pay the extra if the quality isn't really there?
    Universal PLS 6.120D 75 watt
    MutiCam Apex CNC 4'x8' w 6 bit TC.
    EnrRoute 6 Pro 3d software.
    Vision 2550 Rotary Engraver.


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