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Thread: Anyone notice a blueish hue using Target EM6000 finish?

  1. #1
    Join Date
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    Anyone notice a blueish hue using Target EM6000 finish?

    We refinish a lot of furniture in our shop - it's probably 50% or more of our business. I recently decided to switch from Nitro Lacquer to WB finishes for many reasons, healthiness being the biggest(although being able to finish in high humidity here in MD was a huge plus too). Anyway, I haven't finished with it a whole lot yet, but I've noticed something when I have - a blueish hue. This is REALLY pronounced on a Mahogany trunk we just did. I mean - blue.

    Have any of you experienced this? How can I combat this problem?
    --

    Sometimes the best solution to morale problems is just to fire all of the unhappy people.

  2. #2
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    Mike, does it still look blue after it dries? If so, you may be spraying it on too heavy.

    I have not used any Target products in a long time, mainly because of the shipping charges out to the West Coast.

    But just for giggles, check out post #10 in the discussion below on Water Based Finishes, started by Mark Blatter.

    Jack

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Clark View Post
    Mike, does it still look blue after it dries? If so, you may be spraying it on too heavy.

    I have not used any Target products in a long time, mainly because of the shipping charges out to the West Coast.

    But just for giggles, check out post #10 in the discussion below on Water Based Finishes, started by Mark Blatter.

    Jack
    Do you have a link? Yes, it is dry.
    --

    Sometimes the best solution to morale problems is just to fire all of the unhappy people.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Dowell View Post
    Do you have a link?
    Here ya go: https://thecrystalacstore.com/

    Suggest you call their Customer Service and talk to David. 423-218-8561

  5. #5
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    I haven't used any EM-6000 yet, although I do have a gallon of it waiting to try. But I've had the evil bluish tint with a couple of other WB topcoats, and it was when using darker woods. It was always because I applied too many coats or the coats were too heavy. I've never had a problem with 3 coats at 3 mil thick (wet). Doesn't TC claim you can apply an unlimited number of coats with EM-6000? If so, that would suggest you're spraying too heavy. Do you have a wet mil gage? If not, you should get one.

    John

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by John TenEyck View Post
    I haven't used any EM-6000 yet, although I do have a gallon of it waiting to try. But I've had the evil bluish tint with a couple of other WB topcoats, and it was when using darker woods. It was always because I applied too many coats or the coats were too heavy. I've never had a problem with 3 coats at 3 mil thick (wet). Doesn't TC claim you can apply an unlimited number of coats with EM-6000? If so, that would suggest you're spraying too heavy. Do you have a wet mil gage? If not, you should get one.

    John
    I have a gauge but no clue how to use it. I've watched videos until my eyes bleed. Spray a coat and touch the gauge - one reading, turn it and touch - another reading. Sometimes 2 mils, sometimes 8, all int he same spot. Jeff - owner of TC - says that the coats should be not so thick that they look milky. I just can't seem to get a coat in between dry and milky white. This might be too complicated for me. I want to badly to make this work for so m any reasons but it's cost me a ton of money and time so far trying to reproduce the results I got with NC lacquer. Another thing I can't do is get a good off-the-gun finish with WB. There's always overspray in the air. I've seen your spray booth and I just can't replicate that. This is a production environment, filled with sawdust and whatever else. There's dust on the ceiling, dust on the light fixtures - dust everywhere. Open the door and turn on the fan, dust. I also can't run this stuff. With NC, I could just lightly go over it with 0000 steel wool and it was soft, lustrous and perfect. I can do no such thing with this stuff.

    <sigh> I'm sorry. I just pretty much unloaded there. I think I need to reconsider going back to NC. This WB stuff is just too foreign and I've got a backlog of jobs months old. Now is not the correct time for experimenting.
    --

    Sometimes the best solution to morale problems is just to fire all of the unhappy people.

  7. #7
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    Most water borne finishes will have a slightly "cold" cast color-wise...the warm tones in solvent and oil based products are because of the ingredients in them which don't exist in most water borne finishes. (EM2000 is an example of an exception because it's an emulsified alkyd with a water carrier) The way you deal with this is to "warm" up the word prior to top-coating. It can be as simple as a coat of de-waxed shellac or even a drop of amber dye in the finish, depending on the wood species. Some folks (I'm one of them) often use BLO for color and pop with a barrier coat of de-waxed shellac before using water borne top coats.

    And yes, this tends to be more pronounced with darker woods, but it can still be noticeable with maple. Water borne finishes are "more clear" and "colder" and you immediately see that.
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  8. #8
    I'd agree with the wet film thickness was too thick. Last time I used Target coatings was a while ago. EM 9300 was the finish I used. I remember it saying 2 mil wet per coat. And if I went thicker it blued up. I stopped using it because it just took to long to get a descent build with 2 mil coats. It's a great product and the exterior door I put it on 13 years ago still looks good.

  9. #9
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    Sorry to hear the change to WB has become such a mess, Mike. As I said earlier, you have to have spray somewhere where dust is not going to fall or get blown onto the wet finish. It can often take 15 minutes for a coating to set so you have to keep it dust free at least that long. I really don't see why you can't set up a tent or separate room in your shop with an exhaust and filtered make up air. An 8ft plywood box with a door, lights inside, and a box fan for exhaust and furnace filter for the makeup air is the most you would need. And you can't spray w/o exhaust and expect no overspray to land on your work. You need exhaust and, therefore, filtered makeup air to achieve a flawless finish with WB.

    The wet mil gage is not hard to use but you made need to use glasses (I do, 2.5X magnifiers, actually) to see where the finish has been left on the gage. Give it another go, you'll get it. 3 mils is about the sweet spot for most WB products, including EM-9300, which is indeed a very nice product. One way to find the right coverage w/o using a mil gage is to spray some panels vertically. You'll quickly learn where it starts to sag and run. That's too much, including when spraying horizontally.

    I'm pretty sure it's possible to rub out a WB finish if your goal is to just get rid of overspray. Having said that, I haven't done it, but I have to believe it's possible. I'd try some 3000 or so grit Micromesh or Abralon or whatever 3M calls their stuff, and go up/down in grit depending upon what sheen you are after.

    A year from now you'll wonder why it was so hard. Don't give up. If you can't afford to continue now, fine, but come back to it after you get caught up.

    John

    PS, I mentioned a pro woodworker I know in Bel Air in a PM some time ago. He sprays mostly WB (and shellac) in a booth much like I described above. I'm sure he'd be happy to show you how he goes about it and give you some advise. He transitioned from Crystalac (quality issues) to EM-6000 about a year ago.
    Last edited by John TenEyck; 07-05-2018 at 8:38 PM.

  10. #10
    You can absolutely rub out a water borne finish. I use Target EM6000 quite a bit and often rub it out. In fact, I'll go further than that - I sand the finish with a high grit sandpaper (600 or more) and then spray over that. The reason is to "finish fill". When you have open grain or small gaps between veneer (for example) the finish goes into those voids as well as on the surface. If you sand the surface and spray multiple coats (sanding between coats) eventually you'll fill those voids with finish and have a smooth continuous finish without voids. Then rub out the finish with various grits of rubbing compound. I use Menzenra rubbing compound.

    One issue with this - the finish continues to cure, and shrink, over months. Since the finish in the voids is thicker than the finish on the surface, you'll have "ghost voids" in the surface. To really do this right, you have to sit the project aside for a month or more, then do a final sanding, one more coat, then rub it out.

    Regarding the blue - it's not really blue. It's just not orange like you're accustomed to. Put a coat of Sealcoat shellac on before using water borne and it will look like what you're accustomed to. I made a table for a customer years ago and shot it with WB without shellac under it. About six months later, she came to me and complained about the color of the surface. So I took it back, stripped it, put a coat of Sealcoat on it and shot WB on top of it. She was happy.

    Mike
    Go into the world and do well. But more importantly, go into the world and do good.

  11. #11
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    Mike, choose your time for the change. If you have a backlog of work you don't have the time to devote to decent trials. Plan to implement the new coating system over a set time and you will get the results you are looking for. Cheers

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Becker View Post
    Some folks (I'm one of them) often use BLO for color and pop with a barrier coat of de-waxed shellac before using water borne top coats.
    FWIW, Crystalac has a waterborne product that accomplishes this task. It's their Amber Toned Sanding Sealer. I've done some tests on cherry, and the results are quite pleasing to me (and the wife). Not as dramatic as BLO and shellac, but much easier to apply and cleanup.

    https://thecrystalacstore.com/collec...oned-undercoat


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