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Thread: Secondary surfaces in 18th century work

  1. #31
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    That is a good point, Brian. The shenanigans I have gone to dovetailing the angled sides for the apothecary chest were made practical or easier because I have multiple references surfaces after thicknessing on a machine. These reference surfaces are available as a result of the machining process. In the days before machines, it was necessary to find alternative methods, or not just attempt such angled work. If anything, the machined surfaces (from a planer/thicknesser), as much as modern materials, make it possible to do more advanced designs. While it is possible that others way have used similar techniques, I very much doubt that this piece would have appeal for a professional, either today or in the 18th century - it would require too much time and not be economical to build this way. I do it because I can and because I am an amateur for whom time does not have a monetary cost factor. The pre-machine age professional would have thought very strongly about the time-effort-return. Finishing is about expediency.

    Krenov may have argued for the finishing of all surfaces, but he was an amateur, too. He did not have deadlines or even sell his work (and when he did, he asked a token amount for it).

    Equally, the use of modern day methods (of creating traditional joinery) and materials should not necessary be a criticism of modern work; it simply reflects a different era of woodworking. There were no doubt plenty of 18th century builds that came in for criticism as there are 21st century builds that do so.

    Regards from Perth

    Derek
    Last edited by Derek Cohen; 07-06-2018 at 2:05 AM.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derek Cohen View Post
    I very much doubt that this piece would have appeal for a professional, either today or in the 18th century
    Not sure if that is right. All those Bombe chests have some crazy curves for example. Or how about a simple serving tray with splayed sides? Millions have been made of those. Just the fact that you found a workable solution to hand cut these in reasonable time, means that a professional who churns them out daily would be able to get them down real quick.

  3. #33
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    Jus think about it, if someone took it upon himself to make this, would he been afraid to tackle your apothecary chest?

    Made in late 17th century in Antwerp.

    Rijksmuseum kast.jpg

  4. #34
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    Hi Kees

    I am very aware of these pieces. I researched these, and the construction of bombe chests, intensively when planning the Lingerie Chest I built a few years ago (which I view as a modern version of a bombe). These were not run-of-the-mill pieces of furniture. There were no doubt a number of furniture makers who were willing to do the work, and would charge commensurately. What I was indicating before was that relatively few professionals would be willing to undertake such task-intensive designs. A simple search on Google will throw up designs which I refer to as "pseudo bombe" - that have the appearance of curved sides but the drawers are actually straight lines. This is an example of simplifying construction.

    Just the fact that you found a workable solution to hand cut these in reasonable time, means that a professional who churns them out daily would be able to get them down real quick.
    I think that is the point we have all made - the aim of all is to find an efficient method of construction. One aspect is knowing where to take short cuts, such as not finishing underneath the drawer. Another efficient method may be the ease of construction if one does, in fact, finish under the drawer - it just depends on how one is working.

    Regards from Perth

    Derek

  5. #35
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    Maybe I didn't understand you well enough. In these sentences you seem to imply that modern machinery is needed to make the angled dovetail contruction of your drawers:

    The shenanigans I have gone to dovetailing the angled sides for the apothecary chest were made practical or easier because I have multiple references surfaces after thicknessing on a machine. These reference surfaces are available as a result of the machining process. In the days before machines, it was necessary to find alternative methods, or not just attempt such angled work. If anything, the machined surfaces (from a planer/thicknesser), as much as modern materials, make it possible to do more advanced designs.

    But, accurately thicknessing these drawer fronts wouldn't have been a problem at all for a pre industrial woodworker. Thicknessing to a line was well known and often used, if neccesary!

  6. #36
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    Kees, sure they (anyone) could thickness to a line with a handplane. That is not the point. The point is that there are different forms of efficiency, and strategies are decided accordingly. Not all approaches will be agree by all, since getting there may require different methods. Not everyone works the same way. Can you say which is right?

    Regards from Perth

    Derek

  7. #37
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    I can't see a single process on Derek's build so far that can not be fixtured or jigged and done by machine. I believe the real issue is to make it appear done by hand. The difference in size and shape of the dovetails and such. There was a lot of angled and curved work done by hand in the past. When the work required meeting surfaces on two sides it was done. If possible errors were put to the side that did not need to match up with another surface. From what small amount of work I've been able to see up close even glue blocks had 90s on the mating surfaces the other side may have been hatchet chopped. We have a choice now. We can surface everything with machines and sometimes the machine requires that. When working by hand we have a choice, when can do all the extra work which has no effect on the longevity of the life of the piece or its usability or we can leave it. Our choice.
    Jim

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Koepke View Post
    My wife insists that undersides and back sides need to be sanded.

    My response is, "if you want that then you can do it."

    jtk
    How's that working out for you Jim? :-D
    Life's too short to use old sandpaper.

  9. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Kees Heiden View Post
    Not sure if that is right. All those Bombe chests have some crazy curves for example. Or how about a simple serving tray with splayed sides? Millions have been made of those. Just the fact that you found a workable solution to hand cut these in reasonable time, means that a professional who churns them out daily would be able to get them down real quick.
    Of course it is not right. Stuff like this was made in the 18th century and is made today. I used to make silverware trays for the wholesale market. Dovetailed with splayed sides. The pine trays I did for $12 a piece. Here is a walnut example, a left over from thirty years ago. It was on the floor filled with dust and old nails. There is not a right angle anywhere except for the bottom. The very bottom is a little rough and has no finish.
    silver.jpg

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Glenn View Post
    How's that working out for you Jim? :-D
    We have reached some compromises. After my work is done building a piece, she paints it.

    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  11. #41
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    We can surface everything with machines and sometimes the machine requires that.
    How much of the modern manufacturing process has wood being surfaced on all sides due to the wood being milled before the face/show sides are chosen?

    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  12. #42
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    Derek, I thought that I watched your video paying attention to how you referenced your layout. I would have to go back and watch again to be absolutely sure. Did you not reference all of the layout work from the inside face and 1 edge? You may have referenced the blind depth from the front curve mark, not sure on that but even so it would not affect the joinery if the rest was from the inside.
    Jim

  13. #43
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    I have great respect for those workers of the past and some of those of the present. I had the distinct pleasure of working with some excellent carpenters that could neither read nor write. How did I know, they made their mark to get their pay envelope. They could somehow operate a framing square and accurately cut a roof just looking at the marks. They also did angles, curves, compound angles with an ease that I could not match for a long time. I can't say for certain that that was the case for furniture makers, do to the timing, 18th century, they did it with their knowledge of the proceedure. I didn't work in the 18th century of course. Started in the late 50s still many that could not read or do basic arithmetic.
    Jim

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by James Pallas View Post
    Derek, I thought that I watched your video paying attention to how you referenced your layout. I would have to go back and watch again to be absolutely sure. Did you not reference all of the layout work from the inside face and 1 edge? You may have referenced the blind depth from the front curve mark, not sure on that but even so it would not affect the joinery if the rest was from the inside.
    Jim
    Jim, I work from a inside reference edge and side, regardless of whether the boards are prepared on a machine or by hand.

    In the case of the angled dovetails, I worked from each drawer side and the drawer back. However, because the boards had been thicknessed on a thickness-planer, it was possible to work from either both sides of each end. This was especially helpful when scoring the marks for the acute angled side. To be clear, all marking, per se, was done from the reference sides. The parallel nature of the piece allowed for the use of a gauge from the non-reference side to deepen lines on the drawer front, which was convenient and practical in this instance.

    Regards from Perth

    Derek

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warren Mickley View Post
    Of course it is not right. Stuff like this was made in the 18th century and is made today. I used to make silverware trays for the wholesale market. Dovetailed with splayed sides. The pine trays I did for $12 a piece. Here is a walnut example, a left over from thirty years ago. It was on the floor filled with dust and old nails. There is not a right angle anywhere except for the bottom. The very bottom is a little rough and has no finish.
    silver.jpg
    Beautiful work, Warren.
    Bumbling forward into the unknown.

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