The #140 trick is dead ...

[James Pallas]

Basically my point is that the end grain abutments are what determine square with the greatest level of influence, like the shoulder on the tenon.

Yes, I want the rest of it accurate, but very minor inconsistencies at the long grain connections are going to have little impact when weighted against those of the end grain abutments. Very minor meaning that the knife lines touching the inside of the adjoining member should be accurate enough to transfer marks, if they’re not than your end grain abutments will not be accurate either.

I make very large art frames of flimsy 3/8” material that becomes very strong and rigid via joinery. If the connections aren’t square the frame will be twisted. I’ve never needed to do anything other than line up my marks and make sure my shoulders are accurate. That’s a 2” wide connection amplified by 48”. In a few hundred frames I’ve yet to have one with a twist to it.

it appears you are both working towards the same end. Working off the base line. I like to make certain, as well as I can, that the inside surfaces of the pin and tail boards are good and the end of the tail board is true to the face edge if I'm going to use a marking gauge from that edge. I'll use a square from the face edge to mark the base line also. I'm very careful not to square the tail board to the gauge line on the drawer face. Thanks for sharing your methods. There is always more to learn.
Jim

[steven c newman]

Starting to sound like.."How many ways are there...to split a Blonde hair?"

Don't have time for jigs.....tape costs too much, takes to much time to set up. Tend to cut and go....
opened drawer.JPGdovetails.JPG
Like Brian..no gaps, those are the pencil lines left behind....

[Simon MacGowen]

Don't have time for jigs.....tape costs too much, takes...

I have two shooting boards...indispensable for my precision work. I also have a crosscut-sled on my tablesaw...also for precision work. I use jigs because I don't have time...for imprecise work.

Simon

[steven c newman]

Precision work.....with something that can expand and contract, depending on how humid the weather is......Roh-Kay, Raggy..we'll go with that theory...LOL...

Use whatever crutch you desire.....if that is what you need to work....

[Jim Koepke]

Just because all the wood was square to start doesn't mean the finished item will be square if one doesn't bother to take the appropriate steps.

But if the wood isn't square to start it is almost certain the finished item will not be square.

Even with a perfectly square cut my work might get a swipe or two on the shooting board to clean off the fuzzies.

jtk

[Pat Barry]

Would someone please post a picture of the Barron style jig. Also a picture of this jig as used with the two boards for dovetailing? Thanks

[Simon MacGowen]

Would someone please post a picture of the Barron style jig. Also a picture of this jig as used with the two boards for dovetailing? Thanks

https://davidbarronfurniture.blogspo...tomer.html?m=1

On how to make one, see the link given in one of my earlier posts.

Or, get his article that was published in Oct. 2010 (F&C), the same year I started using such a "crutch."

Simon

[Vincent Tai]

Precision work.....with something that can expand and contract, depending on how humid the weather is......Roh-Kay, Raggy..we'll go with that theory...LOL...

Use whatever crutch you desire.....if that is what you need to work....

The point is to let nice and precise pieces expand and contract together like the sides of a drawer or a dovetail box. But you know that. Some people like their edges to be flush and in plane with the rest in most work, for symmetry and general precision to be apparent. I'm in that camp. Precision doesn't always mean whipping out a granite plate and a set of squares 0.00001 something tolerance. A shooting board and crosscut sled are pretty basic and aren't crutches. I don't own a table saw but if I did I would appreciate having a cross cut sled immensely.

Back to dovetailing discussion:

I'm an intermediate level woodworker still and I do a lot of things cut and go. I can appreciate the Barron jig though mine all sit somewhere with wood balancing precariously on top ( I should dig it out and just use it really) and this blue tape trick will definitely be used for any funky angle stuff. I did try laying down one piece of blue tape along the baseline of tails a few years ago. It was enough to help in the transfer of tails (if your work is flat enough) but for normal square stuff it wasn't necessary. My go to is what Brian does but sometimes I do something similar with Derek's wooden square, albeit I use the head of a normal square and just register it along the edge of the pin board and make sure the tail board sits flush or close enough against the head of the square. I never pare through (western) dovetails anymore and it is too easy to pare something out of square so I saw right next* (perhaps into is the more appropriate term) to a knife line and try not to leave evidence it was ever there.
IMG_2294.jpg



With normal stuff like below its fairly efficient to just match up your lines and push stuff flush against a square head. Shooting board makes for nice accurate stock to work with.

IMG_1787.jpg

IMG_1775.jpgIMG_1195.jpgIMG_1820.jpg



However with the stuff below; well I can only wish Derek wrote about tape and other tips a few years ago when I started this box with Nejiri Arigata joints. All sides slope inwards; I think my design teacher had given me the challenge of trying to cut this sort of joinery on sloped boards in place of whatever was usually on a Viking style chest. I was 16 and only had one plane, one disposal blade saw and some big box store chisels at the time. I did all the stock prep on a rickety table with that one plane. I used a 15$ protractor that didn't lock very well for all the angles. It worked but obviously turned out with gaping gaps and looked pretty nasty.
This is the least ugly corner.

fullsizeoutput_2ed.jpg

That same year I actually cut a few of these Japanese dovetails but with the pieces joining at crazy angles (like Dereks but much more acute and with the shoulders cut at those crazy angles); the plan was to have a box made with these Nejiri Arigata joints coming in at crazy angles to form a something like a 64 point star. Would've been a cool box and I proved the joinery worked in my design brief but it would've taken eons at my skill level then to get it done and it wouldn't be pretty. Making a few joints to form 3 points of a star took days. I wish I didn't clean house with most of my photos. These angles would've really caused a laugh. A real prime example of dreaming too big when you're a kid. I have gotten much better at these joints but I've sworn to not let anymore escape the charcoal bin until there are no gaps at all.

Props to Derek for doing this angled work 48(?) times. I would've cracked a few scotches too many each session.

On a side note can anyone tell me why some of my photos upload sideways? If I flip them upside down like above they stay upside down but thats just annoying.

Thanks,

Vince

[Kees Heiden]

The upside down thing is a very annoying treat from the Iphone. It saves the original orientation in the jpg file. You can open it in MS paint first, rotate it how you like and save under another name. That usually works but is a lot of extra work.

[Simon MacGowen]

Precision work.....with something that can expand and contract, depending on how humid the weather is......Roh-Kay, Raggy..we'll go with that theory...LOL...

Use whatever crutch you desire.....if that is what you need to work....

Steven means no harm --his past posts confirmed this. He wasn't really belittling people who use jigs but he feels strongly that he can work with no jig (or minimal? -- in a strict sense, even a screw on the bench for moulding work could be considered a jig), and why not others.

He is just playing with stronger words; we all do sometimes...being sarcastic or have a little fun.

Who wants to go to a dead boring blog or forum after all...not me for sure.

Simon

[Simon MacGowen]

Vince

That is no intermediate-level dovetail work! I have seen both Rob Cosman's and Paul Sellers's work up close, and they will both agree with my assessment. The only better/consistent ones may be the machine-cut ones, provided one is skilled in using such a jig (no matter what dovetail jig it is, there is a learning curve, a deep one I can tell you from experience).

Simon

[Vincent Tai]

The upside down thing is a very annoying treat from the Iphone. It saves the original orientation in the jpg file. You can open it in MS paint first, rotate it how you like and save under another name. That usually works but is a lot of extra work.

I use Macs but I think Preview can do the same thing. Thanks for the tip.

Steven means no harm --his past posts confirmed this. He wasn't really belittling people who use jigs but he feels strongly that he can work with no jig (or minimal? -- in a strict sense, even a screw on the bench for moulding work could be considered a jig), and why not others.

He is just playing with stronger words; we all do sometimes...being sarcastic or have a little fun.

Who wants to go to a dead boring blog or forum after all...not me for sure.

Simon

I haven't been around long so I'll take your word for it and have edited my post.

That is no intermediate-level dovetail work! I have seen both Rob Cosman's and Paul Sellers's work up close, and they will both agree with my assessment. The only better/consistent ones may be the machine-cut ones, provided one is skilled in using such a jig (no matter what dovetail jig it is, there is a learning curve, a deep one I can tell you from experience).

Simon

Thanks Simon! My shop teacher has a habit of showing every new grade 9 class a Rob Cosman dvd. Unfortunately my grade 9 year I had a different teacher who didn't show the dvd. That was a year full of sanding and using wood filler. Happily next year Design was an option and I met my design teacher. My design teacher took a few courses of Cosman's when Cosman use to teach at my local polytechnic institute. I can't remember his exact words apparently Cosman use to say something about 10000 dovetails, unfortunately I can't really remember the context but I think you can understand what Cosman might've been trying to say. In Grade 10 when I had my usual shop teacher back he let me have access to a bin full of Veritas saws and gauges and some nicer chisels. I picked it up fairly quickly and could saw with both hands within a few days (long story about being raised right handed but was born left-handed) but it took constant working in the shop at school and home over the next 3 years for stuff to really zero in. Unfortunately most of the rest of my skills are pretty lacking.

I use to really want to make a wicked dovetailing jig on the table saw but after cutting them by hand that desire faded. It's been a couple years since I've had access to a good router, table saw, or any power tool (except for a drill press and bench grinder) and I couldn't see myself using a dovetailing jig in the future. I prefer pins slim (sometimes to the point of the saw plate thickness) that aren't possible with machinery (at least I think they aren't, I'm not on top of my power tool game obviously) and even on carcass work with more bigger pins I can zip through them pretty easily. Who knows though, maybe I'll go and make a jig or buy a jig one day. I guess I'll be chasing that Cosman level where his slim pins and dovetails look made by a 10k CNC with an alien technology bit. Might be easier to do with a jig and an alien tech router bit. I've got the rest of my life to try and get near. Still won't be able to reach that by the time I die I bet.

Vince

[Derek Cohen]

Vince, those are superb dovetails! Very far from intermediate level.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Vincent Tai]

Vince, those are superb dovetails! Very far from intermediate level.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Thank you Derek!

Vince