Water Based Finishes

[Mark Blatter]

I am considering switching from NC lacquer to a water based finish. I tried Emtech 6500? about five years ago and was sort of meh on it. I have tried calling Target Coatings a couple of times to ask them questions, but so far they have ignored my messages. I find it tough to give any company my business when they cannot return simple phone calls.

Can anyone suggest options that work well? Mostly spraying cabinets, kitchen and bath, but some furniture and doors. Does SW have a decent water based product? I have used SW lacquer for many years and like how it goes on. I will need a product that has tinting as a viable option as well.

Thanks

[John TenEyck]

SW's has several WB finishes. I've only used their Kem Aqua Plus and hated it until I finally added some of GF's Extender to it. Then it sprayed well and looked good. They make a white version of it as well, which can be tinted. But if I were going to try another SW's product I think it would be one of their Sayerlack WB products. I've heard good things about them but haven't tried any yet.

My favorite WB clear coat is GF's Enduro Clear Poly. Very easy to spray, hard and durable, everything I'm looking for. GF makes a white and black version of it as well, and the white is tintable, but they are very different products than the Clear, much more like paint.

I have used a little of Lenmar's DuraLaq, which is available through BM. It is sold as clear coat, but can be tinted to any of BM's 6000 or so colors. I had some tinted to a gray color and it sprayed and looked great. It's not as chemically resistant as the Enduro Clear Poly, however. If I needed higher chemical durability I would try Lenmar's MegaVar, also sold through BM and also tintable to the full BM color range. I can buy both products from my local BM dealer with one day turnaround for tinting.

John

[Mike Henderson]

I've used several water based finishes and have been happy with them. The issue is that they're acrylics so if you have standing water on the finish the finish will turn white.

If you're going to use water based on something like a kitchen table, get the pre-catalyzed water based finish.

Oh, and water based finishes are very clear so they look "blue" to our eyes accustomed to the "orange" of solvent based finishes. I usually use sealcoat, which is somewhat orange, as a sanding sealer to take away some of the "blue".

Water based finishes have come a long ways and are pretty good, in general. Here in CA, that's all we can use - solvent based finishes are not sold here.

Mike

[Jim Becker]

I've always used water borne finishes since there's no way I can safely spray solvent based products. I do use Target Coatings products and haven't had any customer service issues with them the few times I've tried. But I'm very supportive of your reluctance to patronize them if they are not returning your contacts, etc. John mentioned some great alternatives. I haven't played much with most of them, but I know they are very good as he describes. I had similar issues with the SW Kem Aqua he mentioned, but didn't know about the extender at the time. I did buy some for when I go to use up the remainder of the finish I have and see if that helps me be happy with the product since I can buy it locally for about the same price I pay for TC ... contractor discounts are nice.

[Mark Blatter]

Has anyone tried the GF pre-cat water based lacquer?

Where do you generally buy the GF finishes?

[John TenEyck]

I have used a little of GF's Precat Lacquer. It did not spray nearly as well as Clear Poly; it was hard to get it to flow out at 3 mils, and it wanted to orange peel if I sprayed much heavier than that. It did spray better than Kem Aqua Plus (before I added Extender to it) but that's not saying much. But that was before I had tried Extender and I will add about 3% to a gallon of Precat Lacquer I still have and give it another try.

I get GF's products through a pro friend of mine. Before that perk came along I bought some from Rockler (ouch) and some from Woodworker's Hardware (still ouch, but not quite as bad). I'm just getting to the point now of buying 5 gallon pails. You essentially get the 5th gallon free. If you can settle on one product for most of your finishing needs buying in larger quantities will save you some money. If you would like to do that but can't because sometimes you use gloss and other times satin, be aware that you can buy flatters for WB products from Hood Finishing. A gallon is only around $25 and a little goes a very long way. That would allow you to buy in bulk whatever sheen is the glossiest you normally use and then add the flatters to it whenever you need a lower sheen.

At retail pricing, the Lenmar Duralaq is hard to beat at around $50/gal, clear or tinted.


John

[Mark Blatter]

John, is BM Builders Mart?

I cannot find any pro dealers around me for GF, though there are a couple of small retail specialty shops. They are an arm, leg and the other foot though. I was thinking I would try Homestead if shipping isn't too much. I would stick to one sheen, around a satin finish and most definitely buy it in 5 gal cans. I am close to closing a deal with a home builder on doing 3 - 5 homes a month so will go through a fair bit of it.

[Prashun Patel]

I tried enduro clear poly on JOHN t’s recommendation and I can vouch for it. It is very easy to use, forgiving, and fairly durable. I have done two kitchen tables and two bath vanities with it.

[John TenEyck]

Oh, sorry, Mark. No BM = Benjamin Moore.

John

[Jack Clark]

I recently tried some Crystalac clears.

Wow! Their SUPER PREMIUM Clear Acrylic/Poly Top Coat sprays beautifully right out of the "can" (actually, if you buy a gallon it comes in a very easy to use plastic jug). Viscosity measured 30 seconds with my #4 Ford cup. I'm also testing their PolyOx Floor Finish as a possible tougher finish for the kitchen cabinets below the sink and around the dishwasher, the areas that receive the most abuse. The PolyOx Floor Finish is heavier, but thinning it 5% makes it extremely easy to spray, almost identical to the SUPER PREMIUM Clear.

Customer Service is excellent.

Also, you can purchase small sizes for testing purposes: 8 oz, pints, quarts, and of course gallon jugs, and pails

The really good news is that right now if you purchase $25 or more worth of product, Crystalac pays the shipping costs. Not sure how much longer this will last. But if you're at all interested in trying a terrific waterbased (waterborne?) line of finishes, I would heartily recommend you try some of their offerings. I've been extremely impressed.

https://thecrystalacstore.com/

[Mark Bolton]

We've used a bunch of WB finishes. ml Campbell agualente, we ran their post cat for a while, Kem Aqua plus, Sayerlak AF72 (a sherwin owned line in the US), we've run a ton of Target 9300 polycarbonate, and a few others. Were trying ml campbells 2K waterborne now (super expensive), and going to bring in some of the MagnamaxH20. The 9300 from target is really nice and look forward to trying the magnamax.

Jeff at Target has always been very helpful but they are small outfit and busy. They have plenty of good info on their site and I can understand not being able to field every phone call being small/lean. You may try an email instead or just ordering a bit of a few to try. If you need verbal/face to face youd be best to get a relationship going with your local supply. I despise wasting time with salesman on the phone and in the shop so I prefer email. Targets finishes are more than reasonably priced with his constant discount codes. I'd just order a quart or 4 or 6 of various finishes and try them. It's the only way your going to know for sure what works for you.

[Rob Sack]

I have been spraying water based finishes for 30 years. My kitchen was sprayed with a product called Amity. It was tough to spray, but the end result was great and 28 years later it has held up like new. I would shy away from Agualente unless the new formula is a major improvement over their original formula, which in our experience did not hold up well. We are currently using a product from CIC Coatings called Centurion Waterbased Clear Conversion Coating. It sprays like NC lacquer, dries almost as fast, and is quite durable. We have used it in kitchens and bathrooms with great success and it can be applied over oil based stains, once the stain has completely dried. It also builds much faster than NC lacquer. I have recommended it to several other finishers, and they have had the positive results we have.

[Mark Blatter]

We have used it in kitchens and bathrooms with great success and it can be applied over oil based stains, once the stain has completely dried. It also builds much faster than NC lacquer. I have recommended it to several other finishers, and they have had the positive results we have.

One of my concerns is applying WB over oil stains. I did a dresser set and it seemed to be fine, but I don't recall how long I let the stain dry. I am used to applying the stain, wiping it off and letting it sit for a short while, then applying NC lacquer. Does anyone know how well GF or Emtech works over oil stains?

I have ordered some additional Emtech as well as GF to try them out. I ordered Emtech despite their unwillingness to respond to either voice messages or emails. If the product is great, I will keep using them, but it needs to be significantly better than others to get me to buy more since they don't seem to respond to any form of communication. If these don't work, I will try some of the other suggested products. Thanks to all for your thoughts.

[John TenEyck]

I've had no trouble with GF's WB topcoats bonding to OB stains as long as it has dried/cured for at least 72 hours. I think GF recommends 4 days, which is 96 hours. I did have a debonding issue once when I tried spraying some of their High Perf. Poly over OB gel stain that had only dried for 24 hours.

Clearly it would be best to use WB stains, etc. under WB topcoats. Not only does it eliminate any compatibility issues, but it allows you to reduce the time waiting for the stain to dry. But even that won't reduce the time to what you've been accustomed to with NC lacquer. However, I have found that if I use SW's BAC Wiping stain, I can spray a coat of Sealcoat shellac over it after only a couple of hours, and then any of the GF WB topcoats I use an hour after that. A further benefit is no grain raising like can happen with WB stains.

John

[Zachary Caldwell]

I know this post is old, but I would like to know what your thoughts are on the finishes you tried?