Can you put a #2 or #3 blade in a #4 or #5 plane? / Options for Narrow Blades

[Luke Dupont]

Hi guys,

So, as I'm very slowly getting back into woodworking, as much as can be done in an apartment (small projects), I want to address one issue that was problematic last time I was into woodworking:

I have chronic tendonitis in my wrists from overuse, which has not healed up after several years. I'd like to avoid straining and damaging it further, which means that I cannot really use the muscles one uses to "grip" or "pull", and I have to be careful not to do anything too strenuous.

That presents a problem with planing, and especially with small Japanese planes that are difficult to hold due to their size, and the fact that they cut on the pull stroke.

So I'm considering Vintage Stanley planes or traditional wooden planes. As I'm not making anything large, I don't need anything bigger than a No. 4 or so, but it has to be easy to push and not strenuous, first and foremost.

Something with a narrow blade would be ideal. Maybe around 1.5" or so. Bedded at a slightly lower angle than normal would be great as well.

One thing that occurred to me is that perhaps I can put blades for a No. 2 or No. 3 plane into a No. 4, since they are narrow, Would anyone happen to know if they fit, or if the frogs are set at different heights making this impossible (ie, the blade not being long enough to protrude on the larger planes)?

Perhaps I should really look into making my own planes again...

[Kees Heiden]

It’s easier to camber the blade so only 1.5” in the middle is cutting. It doesn’t need to be a perfect camber, the middle can be rather flat. Otherwise you regulate the pushing resistance with the shaving depth and you can wax the bottom of the plane.

[Kees Heiden]

And why not get a #2 or#3 if you want a narrow plane?

[Derek Cohen]

Luke

Consider buying or making a true Krenov design plane. This will have:

1. low centre of effort for reduced effort in pushing.
2. no higher than 45 degree bed, ideally 42 degree bed.
3. double iron (so the chipbreaker can be used to control tearout in interlocked grain). Most use a Hock iron/chipbreaker - aim for 1 1/2" - 1 3/4" width.
4. wooden construction

The combination of these features will create a plane that should be easy for you to push.

For information on "centre of effort", go to my website: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Commentary/Index.html



Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Koepke]

The problem isn't the blade it is the chip breaker. The chip breakers meant for a #2 or #3 planes do not have the adjuster cut out in the right place to work with a #4 frog. My guess is using a #4 chip breaker with smaller blades would cause shavings to catch under the chip breaker and cause clogging.

It might actually be easier to effectively modify a 2" blade to only cut a 1-1/2" swath.

Here is a post showing a way it can be done:

https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?158373

Taking a light shaving is helpful in keeping my aching and damaged joints from becoming inflamed. Carpal tunnel is another problem that gives me trouble at times.

Have you thought of using a #3 size plane?

You might also look into an old Stanley/Bailey #5-1/4 for a longer plane. It uses the same 1-3/4" blade as a #3.

There would likely also be an advantage with these due to their being lighter than a #4 or #5, though both tend to demand a bit higher price on the auction or retail markets. Often a Millers Falls or Sargent plane can be had for less than a Stanley. At yard sales is where one can get the best prices.

jtk

[Luke Dupont]

It’s easier to camber the blade so only 1.5” in the middle is cutting. It doesn’t need to be a perfect camber, the middle can be rather flat. Otherwise you regulate the pushing resistance with the shaving depth and you can wax the bottom of the plane.

Yeah, I was thinking that would be an option as well if the blades / chipbreakers aren't compatible.

And why not get a #2 or#3 if you want a narrow plane?

Well, I'd love to get a #2! They were prohibitively expensive last time I checked on ebay though -- seems to be a popular collector's item. But maybe I can find a seller who doesn't know it's a "rare" thing. Got my vintage Washita for a tenth of what collectors wanted not by searching "Pike Washita" but "Vintage Whetstone"

Luke

Consider buying or making a true Krenov design plane. This will have:

1. low centre of effort for reduced effort in pushing.
2. no higher than 45 degree bed, ideally 42 degree bed.
3. double iron (so the chipbreaker can be used to control tearout in interlocked grain). Most use a Hock iron/chipbreaker - aim for 1 1/2" - 1 3/4" width.
4. wooden construction

The combination of these features will create a plane that should be easy for you to push.

For information on "centre of effort", go to my website: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Commentary/Index.html



Regards from Perth

Derek

Hey Derek! I've always loved the look of those Krenov planes, but never tried one. I see that the blades are indeed narrow and stout, and look easy to hold in addition to having a wood sole / body. I think I might very well go this route!
I did try my hand at making such a plane in the past, but found that my wedge would not tighten properly due to my wooden crossbar being too "bendy".

I really love wood planes in general, so I'm actually leaning towards this option. I'll look into either buying a krenov style, or making a similar plane myself with a more traditional wedge-in-groove design (Maybe using a hock blade? Not sure if they're long enough. Or I could try the Krenov style again with a larger, metal crossbar).

The problem isn't the blade it is the chip breaker. The chip breakers meant for a #2 or #3 planes do not have the adjuster cut out in the right place to work with a #4 frog. My guess is using a #4 chip breaker with smaller blades would cause shavings to catch under the chip breaker and cause clogging.

It might actually be easier to effectively modify a 2" blade to only cut a 1-1/2" swath.

Here is a post showing a way it can be done:

https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?158373

Taking a light shaving is helpful in keeping my aching and damaged joints from becoming inflamed. Carpal tunnel is another problem that gives me trouble at times.

Have you thought of using a #3 size plane?

You might also look into an old Stanley/Bailey #5-1/4 for a longer plane. It uses the same 1-3/4" blade as a #3.

There would likely also be an advantage with these due to their being lighter than a #4 or #5, though both tend to demand a bit higher price on the auction or retail markets. Often a Millers Falls or Sargent plane can be had for less than a Stanley. At yard sales is where one can get the best prices.

jtk

Ah, thanks for the great length! I didn't consider the chipbreaker problem. Yeah, I think modifying the blade as you and Kees suggest.

I did have a No. 3 previously, by the way -- specifically for this reason. It was definitely easier to push than a No. 4. Still would like something a little narrower, but perhaps a narrow blade in a larger (heavier) body could be an advantage too.

For the size of work that I'm doing currently, though, I honestly could probably get away with a block plane, or something of comperable size. Going too small is counter productive in terms of weight and grip area however.

I think I'll do some more research into Krenov style planes and compare them with potential vintage Stanley options.

[Kees Heiden]

Sure, make a Krenov plane, it's a nice project for a rainy weekend. But don't put your hopes up too high. I find I have to squeeze the typical krenov shape pretty hard and am leaning down quite heavy on the backside. A more traditional coffin shaped wooden plane has a much more comfortable grip, despite Derek's ideas about "centre of effort".

And the Stanley #2 model is also made new by LN and Woodriver, allthough they make them quite heavy. The price is more agreeable though.

[Frederick Skelly]

LN sells a #2 for $275. If that's more than you want to spend, you could call a dealer and probably find vintage cheaper if you need one. I like that better than using the auction site. Also look in antique stores. I stumbled on to mine at an antique mall for $15 - it was painted black and was being used as a decoration.
Fred

[Derek Cohen]

Sure, make a Krenov plane, it's a nice project for a rainy weekend. But don't put your hopes up too high. I find I have to squeeze the typical krenov shape pretty hard and am leaning down quite heavy on the backside. A more traditional coffin shaped wooden plane has a much more comfortable grip, despite Derek's ideas about "centre of effort".

And the Stanley #2 model is also made new by LN and Woodriver, allthough they make them quite heavy. The price is more agreeable though.

The advantage of a Krenov plane is that it can be pushed with the palm. The disadvantage of a Bailey design is that the handle must be gripped in a fist. Luke stated clearly that he cannot grip with his fist ...

I have chronic tendonitis in my wrists from overuse, which has not healed up after several years. I'd like to avoid straining and damaging it further, which means that I cannot really use the muscles one uses to "grip" or "pull", and I have to be careful not to do anything too strenuous.

Hence Krenov. Not a high-sided coffin smoother - that, too, is required to be gripped.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Brandon Speaks]

I would think a wooden plan would be best considering your issues. I have never tried a Krenov but the concept seems good.

[Kees Heiden]

No you don’t need to grip either of them. I don’t know what is wrong exactly with luke’s hands but you don’t need to squeeze A Stanly or coffin smoother. while pushing. But I do get tired hands when using a Krenov design for longer periods. Somehow my hands slip off and I have to squeeze. And then on lifting the plane for the return stroke it doesn’t feel as a very positive grip either.

[Luke Dupont]

No you don’t need to grip either of them. I don’t know what is wrong exactly with luke’s hands but you don’t need to squeeze A Stanly or coffin smoother. while pushing. But I do get tired hands when using a Krenov design for longer periods. Somehow my hands slip off and I have to squeeze. And then on lifting the plane for the return stroke it doesn’t feel as a very positive grip either.

It may depend on the size and shape of the particular Krenov plane.

One style that I was thinking might be benefitial is the old, medieval / old continental style wooden plane with a horn in the front.

Perhaps it's really best to make my own, given my specific needs. It might take a few tries, but I'm more likely to be able to make exactly what suits me that way. Possibly more fun, too!

In that case, I just need to find a nice thick but narrow iron that will work. Block plane irons seem okay but most are really thin... Hock irons are a good option still, of course -- a bit short, but I think they could work for me.

I even thought of just adding a tote and knob to a Japanese plane, but I would be somewhat embarrassed to display such a monstrosity... And I'm sure performance would be sub-par, as they're not designed for that.

I'll try a few of these options, starting with what fits into my immediate budget, and report back here if I make anything interesting!

[Tom Trees]

I have problems with holding various things, a type of psoriatic arthritis which includes tendon problems I have to grip things stoutly, in order not to put pressure on where the hand meets the wrist..
in other words push ups would be hurting the bones on the end of my forearms so those Krenov planes are a no no.
Likewise using a short plane would kink my wrists for jack work.
I believe you use less effort in the long run with a wider iron after scrub work, since you can do the work with half the effort...
Yes it is a bit harder to push, but it easier for a multitude of reasons in the long run...look up David Weaver's cap iron blog on woodcentral (David W on youtube)

Another benefit if you use the cap iron to eliminate tearout you wont have to worry about working around problematic areas.

Do you have a bench yet?
That would make me choose on whether I wanted a woodie or a bailey type, since with most types of woodies the totes are about 2 or 3 inches taller
and that would put a kink on my wrists pushing arm and hand bones together,
If I wanted to use an old style woodie I would have a lower bench.
I have heard that these planes take less effort to use, so maybe I might make or spring for those transitional planes which have the handle behind the frog/iron
instead of behind but above it.

I tend to try and avoid anything that I have to use my fingers for, that rules out those Japanese planes for me.

The Bailey wins every time in this regard, and the design is flawless because the force behind the blade is in a straight line instead of having to put additional directed force elsewhere,
and also because of the cap iron.
Yes I find gripping things difficult, but you dont have to grab onto a bailey with effort, The tote just locks into an extension of your arm to act as a whole, and there's no compression
of bones which trigger tendons off also.

Keep the frog all the way back to the casting, and not forward closing up the mouth, because that is what makes it hard going!
You will not be able to plane if the cap iron is set to have influence, and the mouth is closed up.
The closed mouth only limits tearout, compared to an open mouth with the cap iron set which will eliminate it, and can be adjusted to the particular species if needed...
Some being far more tenacious than others

Happy to discuss things

Tom

[John Kananis]

Hey, Luke, here's another school of thought: Ever consider wrapping your wrists? Folks think its to protect the knuckles but boxers wrap their wrists to keep them straight and prevent damage. If the wraps are too long, cut a bit off but don't not wrap between your knuckles, this step helps keep everything where it should be. (I used to box) - No matter how sore my hands were, wraps would always make everything better...

[Josh Waine]

Sounds like you could use a #3 and a #5 1/4. Both use 1 3/4" irons, just chamfer the edges slightly to get a 1 1/2" cut