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Thread: Cermark in Caustic Environment

  1. #1
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    Cermark in Caustic Environment

    I've been asked to quote engraving large sign (24x36) for chicken plant. Stainless steel. Cermark would be only way I could do it. Anyone want to comment on use anywhere similar?
    Yes, I've run Yeti types thru washer, but not really same environment. Will it hold up for a couple of years or longer?
    They have used simple corrugated plastic sign, but they don't last long. Washdown multiple of times per shift, 24x7.
    High pressure, 600psi, Rowmark won't hold up to water pressure and sign has to be able to be stood off from wall.

    Thanks Guys.
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  2. #2
    Cermark is good stuff but abrasion will wear it down, and just plain tap water under high pressure is abrasive. If just pressure washing with say a 40° nozzle with a 2800psi machine from a few feet away, I would guess the Cermark should handle a few thousand passes with no problem. Key word there was "guess"

    As far as the caustic environment, Our daily-use steak knives & such have been thru dishwashing cycles 2 or 3 times a week at least for about 8 years. The Cermark has noticeably faded, but is still there and very readable. I make Cermarked SS ID plates for 2 mining truck manufacturers, these trucks mix and dispense ammonium nitrate and fuel oil to blow big holes in the ground; these trucks and every thing in and around them are exposed to these and other chemicals, and also endure sandstorms and other nasty weather conditions- The buyers have told me they're surprised at how well the ID plates hold up. In 15 years of making them, I've never had to make a replacement...

    As to Rowmark--Rowmark Laserable material won't last long due to the thin cap, but 1/8" thick Ultramatte will hold up to anything they can throw at it short of plastic-eating chemicals such as acetone or MEK. It's what I use in the same mining trucks for their controls labeling. They started out (early '90's) using aluminum plates that we would engrave and paint; these plates would fail in less than a year due to chemical reactions with the aluminum, and the weather conditions. Never has an Ultramatte plate failed...
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  3. #3
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    Considering that ammonium nitrate is made from chicken poop, the Cermark should do fine in this application. I made a lot of dirt fly with anfo when I was in the Army as a combat engineer, it's awesome stuff!

  4. #4
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    Thanks Kev, I had reviewed what you posted prior and is what I expected. They really don't want to use plastic, so Romark is out. I'll quote, and see what they think, and will do them a sample to test. I just bought a couple more bottles of Cermark, the LMM14 I've been using and a bottle of 6000 to give it a try. I'll split the engraving and do half with each. (after working out best settings for the 6000.

    Oh, Gary, I'm not at all worried about the chicken poop, it is the caustic they are using to wash down the poop! Hope it works, there are a ton of Chicken plants up here. I'm in Tyson and George's backyard, and this is a competitor.
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  5. #5
    I have a small bottle of LMM14 and I'm afraid to try it-

    --this is because I also bought some EnduraMark and some LaserBond. Not entirely happy with them...

    The E-mark works good, but application sucks. Best I can tell, the main 'non-active' ingredient is talc. Of course I don't know the active ingredient(s) but the stuff is pure white, and when dry it looks, acts and feels like baby powder. That said, it Will Not Flow Out when brushed, no matter how thick or thin, and second coats just push the first coat(s) around. So I air brushed it- The problem, you can't tell how much you sprayed on, white against silver doesn't show up well, hard to find the bare metal showing thru the weak spots. And, it didn't spray consistently. This all led to using more product to spray just the 160 sq inches of section outlines of a 24x30" panel than the 6000 I brush onto the roughly 620 sq inches of the same panel! (about 85% of the surface).

    I had high hopes for the LaserBond, as it's made by the inventor of Cermark (as I understand it). This stuff is charcoal colored, so much better contrast against the SS. However, I believe the bottle I bought was factory-thinned with acetone or..? Because (a) after mixing 2:1 with DNA and applying it with a foam brush, the flippin' brush MELTED! And (b) whatever IS in it, it does NOT mix with DNA! Spraying the stuff was like... imagine freshly waxing the hood of your car, and then trying to spray paint it. That is just how this stuff acted when it hit the stainless, the stuff kept separating and 'moving', leaving bumps and holes instead of a smooth finish. Came out of the gun blotchy too, had large dots in the overspray... To fill and smooth the voids and bumps I used a 1" regular paint brush, and like the EnduraMark, it won't flow out, and the brush moves around the prior coats. Thinning it with more DNA didn't help a bit with brushing or spraying. The final problem, it didn't engrave anywhere close to as black as 6000 or the EndurMark. I lasered an entire panel with it, and it was only dark gray at best. Had some 'racing stripe' inconsistencies too, probaly to do with the thinner mismatch? I ended up re-engraving the whole panel with 6000. Lucky for me I'm prudent about 'parking' my work in the machines just in case I DO have to re-engrave, and the second 3-1/2 hour's worth of engraving lined up perfectly to the first. I mixed the whole bottle at once, so that doomed any further thinning experimentation...

    And since the LMM14 looks exactly like the LaserBond, I haven't tried it yet! But I will soon...

    So for me, I'll just keep using 6000 - I know what to expect, I know it's durable, and I know exactly the mix (about 2-1/4 parts DNA to 1 part mud for brushing), and it's extremely forgiving when brushing because it DOES flow out, very flat, very smooth. And the cream color is a good contrast, you can see where it is, and where it isn't...

    Sorry for the hi-jack, good luck with the project! And if you try the 6000, I think you'll like it
    ========================================
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  6. #6
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    lmm14.jpgHere is a photo of my little bottle of Lmm14 that is just about empty and the little plastic condiment container I use to mix with my DNA and brush on. I use a little acid brush and it works well for cups, but I'd use a foam brush for a large plate. BTW, after about three uses, my foam brushes DID melt and ruin any cermark with foam clumps. The liquid is pretty dark, but not black. My bottle of Laserbond is BLACK as coal. And won't wash off your hands without scrubbing. And has failed on all my trials on SS and aluminum. I was able to do a few glass mugs and it was passable, but not sellable. So it sits quietly in the corner.

    I have done one small trial on aluminum with Enduromark which is way Yellow/white. At my same Cermark settings, it actually is pretty resistant, better than Lmm14 for me. But not great. I think I could get it to stick permanently to aluminum with a bit more work. And it brushed pretty easy too.

    The Lmm14 wipes off EASY once dry. So you have to really be careful, from what I understand the 6000 is resistant to some handling. LMM14 IS NOT, so be aware you can't touch at all. Some minor streaking is fine and thin seems to be better. Not water thin, but thin. If it runs off cup, just a bit too thin, let the DNA evaporate for a minute and try again. Just my experience. And YES, I've got a 125 gram bottle of the two types coming.
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  7. #7
    if you like EnduraMark as compared to LMM14, you will LOVE 6000...

    It's only irritating issue (for me) is it settles in the bottle like immediately. Must always be shaking or stirring. Even the uncut 'mud' must be shaken well before transferring it to another bottle. In my mix bottles, my way around settling between brush loads to spin-stir the mix with the brush, then I 'spin dry' the brush within the bottle a bit to remove the excess (bottle can't be too full )- takes some practice get the spin right, but if it's dripping out of the foam, too wet (unless you have a lot of acreage to cover, then you can push the drips around).

    I use cheap HD wood handle foam brushes, and when done I chuck them into a cordless drill to spin-dry the brush into the bottle. Makes tje brush last a long time, and prevents dry-clumping in the brush.

    I bought 'quality' 2" foam brush from Lowes, has a pinkish flat handle, very nice for a foam brush, the foam is fairly 'tight'- with one load I can cover 2 to 3 square feet of stainless before needing to reload. A 2" cheap brush will do about half that much, which still isn't bad.

    I ALWAYS keep 1/2 full or so bottle of DNA handy to soak brushes, and re-thin mix that gets a bit thick. I'll usually soak a dry brush in the alky, spin-dry a bit with my fingers, then dip & stir the mix, the little extra alky in the brush replaces alky that's evaporated in the mix. When making up more mix, I use the brush cleaning alky, it all gets recycled

    6000 is pretty durable after it dries, it IS easy to scratch off with fingernails & such, but it isn't easy to just push off. I noticed the LaserBond was very easy to accidentally wipe away...
    ========================================
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  8. #8
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    I have found that LMM6038 is the best cross of LMM14 and LMM6000. It goes on like 6000 and won't easily brush off like 14. At the same time it will more likely mark metal that 6000 is iffy on such as chrome and brass. The best selling point for me is that unlike 6000, it's really difficult to mess it up. Too thick, too thin, over laps, runs.. none seems to matter in the final result. The ONLY drawback I've found is leaving 6038 on too long leaves a shadow that can be difficult to remove.
    Now I know they keep saying 6038 will be going away in favor of 14. They've been saying that for years & I keep buying & using it.
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