Router Table Part 2 - so, what if I went stand-alone...

[Dean Moldenhauer]

So, it’s me again... fresh from being educated by a number of very helpful and experienced folks in my quest to figure out the best plan for a router table integrated into the table saw I plan on buying. As part of that discussion, many people suggested that, if I have the room In my shop, they would advise going with a stand-alone router table rather than integrating into the TS. I do have the room in my shop so a stand-alone table is still under consideration.

I had decided that, whether I go stand-alone or integrated, I was going to go with the Incra Mast R Lift II router lift - the Incra version because of the MagnaLock rings. So, I started doing a little deeper digging into what kind of nice stand-alone router table options are out there. I will be looking for a complete setup (stand, table top, lift system, fence, etc.). I just want to put it together, I don’t think I want to build my own.
It’s been an eye-opener looking at all of the amazing options. I have looked at offerings from Incra, Jess Em, Kreg, Sawstop, and others, and most all of them offer something very attractive. Here are some of my observations and my thoughts about how I am leaning for each of the elements of the router table setup:

Frame:
Many of the manufacturers offer what appears to be a very sturdy and capable frame. Not a lot to be said here except I’m leaning toward the ALTS version from Jess Em. Looks quite sturdy and I like the caster kit. A close second is the SawStop version, for similar reasons. I’m sure Indra is amazing, but I’m having a hard time with gold/red color scheme (petty, I know).

Top:
So, I thought for sure I was sold on cast iron, and I may still be, but a couple of things are making me wonder... this will be in an unheated shop. I live in the Pacific Northwest so it can be rainy and moisture in the air, but not humid like in the south. I am a little concerned about how much maintenance will be required on that top ( I know, same goes for my table saw...).
i am also considering full phenolic. I like the idea of the stability of full phenolic with no MDF. Probably not as good a choice as cast iron, but maybe a good compromise considering the stability and low maintenance factor.
Finally... MDF or phenolic/MDF combo. To be honest, MDF concerns me a little in a non climate-controlled shop. Maybe I shouldn’t be concerned, but I am.
in this category, I’m leaning toward SawStop if I go cast iron and Jess Em if I go phenolic. In fact, if I go phenolic, I am leaning strongly toward the Jess Em Mast R Lift Excel II (more about that later ��).

Fence:
It is hard to not lean toward the Incra LS system here (even though its gold and red...). That just seems like such an amazing and accurate fence - to be honest, it is probably too amazing for me, and might be wasted on my abilities.
If I go with the Jess Em system, I will be going with the TA router table fence.

Mast R Lift Excel II (side crank) vs. Mast R Lift II (top-operated):
So, I have been scouring the web last night and today looking for people’s impressions and reviews of the Mast R Lift Exel II system, but not finding very much. It looks like a neat system and I get the sense that it’s very well built, but just not a lot of folks giving their thoughts on it. One small disadvantage is that it is like the Jess Em Mast R Lift II lift in that it only takes the plastic inserts, not the MagnaLock rings like the Incra version.

Whaddya’ think... for those that encouraged me to look at stand-alone router table options... what say ye’ about the things noted above?

i am just about half-tempted to place my order right now for the Jess Em Ultimate Router Table Complete System and be done with it. Just don’t want to overlook something important and the opportunity to learn from others here.

thanks,

Dean

[Nick Decker]

Don't know how you feel about Kreg blue, but their Universal Bench system is good stuff, very sturdy and adaptable.

https://www.kregtool.com/store/c42/u...d-height-legs/

Their casters are excellent, too.

I haven't used the frames from Jessem, Incra, Woodpeckers, etc., and they may be fine, but they just look kinda "spindly" to me, compared to the Kreg.

[Jim Morgan]

I have a JessEm Mast R Lift Excel I system with a 3hp PC motor, with which I have been very pleased. I connected an Incra positioner from an older router table to the (very sturdy) JessEm fence, so have accurate positioning in both X and Y. I suppose the plastic inserts are marginally less convenient that the Magna Locs, but they are available in a wider range of openings, including blank inserts that you can bore to your exact needs.

[Cliff Polubinsky]

Dean

I'll put a big recommendation for the Incra fence. The 2 places where the Incra shines is in repeatability and accuracy of adjustment. I got really tired early on with a standard fence when trying to fine tune a piece. I'd try a cut, realize it was a little off, and bump the fence to adjust it. That would be a little too much so I'd try to bump it half way back. Too much or not enough so I'd bump again trying to find the right spot. Would take forever and getting it right was due to luck as much as anything else.

With the Incra you can adjust in precise knowable steps so dialing in the cut is much easier and faster. Where the router lift gives you precise control of the bit height the Incra gives you precise control of your fence position. The two work together

Cliff

[Dean Moldenhauer]

Thanks, Nick. I will look a bit more at the Kreg table. I have to be honest... while I know the Kreg jigs are very well-regarded and useful, I have always been turned off by the blue plastic. I know the Kreg router table is not plastic and that they make very good stuff, it’s just a mental model I have to get over .

Jim, I haven’t found much on the original Excel. Is it pretty much the same idea - that is, side crank for elevation change? Have you had any experience with the top-adjust versions (e.g. Mast R Lift II, non-Excel)? Just wondering if anyone prefers one over the other and why. The top-adjust version seems like it’s very accurate. I would assume the Excel versions are equally as accurate - has that been your experience?

ithink I’m going to try to be less concerned with the MagnaLock. Seems like a nice feature, but realistically, how often am I really going to need to be changing those rings? Someone mentioned in my other router table thread that they pretty much just leave the one with the biggest openings in the table most of the time. Makes sense since the object is to allow the dust to be collected.

thanks for the input, guys.

Dean

[Nick Decker]

Dean, a couple of points.

I don't know about the Kreg router tables, only their bench (frame) system. Kreg does seem to tend toward plastic, somewhat, but I assure you their benches are all steel. Both my router table and benchtop planer sit on Kreg benches (with casters) and I couldn't be happier with them.

MagnaLocks: I wouldn't obsess over them. They're nice to have, but not necessary. I've also found that their thickness is not made to real close tolerances, meaning you'll probably need to adjust them flush whenever you change one. Not a huge deal, just happy that they're adjustable at all.

[Dean Moldenhauer]

Thanks, Nick and Cliff.
I looked at the Kreg systems. I’m not sure I care just for the table and fence, but the frame does look sturdy. I might just have to get a rattle can of matte black paint . I will compare those frames more with some of the other “spindly” versions. I will also have to make sure it would be compatible with whatever table top I end up with. Seems simple enough that they would just be a frame I can attach anything to, but I don’t want to be unpleasantly surprised. As far as the rings go, I think I’m ready to move on from that requirement.

Cliff, I do keep going back and looking at the Incra fence. There are a lot of good videos on that system and it does look amazing. The one thing I have to figure out is compatibility of the Incra LS Super system with other table tops. It looks like it has to screw to a top, which limits me to the MDF, phenolic or MDF/phenolic combo. I am considering the phenolic tables so this isn’t a problem. I not too crazy about the MDF tables, but I probably need more education about this as I’m probably limiting my choices for no good reason.

Also, with the Incra LS, it looks like the table layout/orientation is important. I’ve always thought that the orientation should be such that you feed in parallel to the long side of the table, and most table seem to have their t-slots and fence slots in this orientation. The Incra tables that accept (and are pre-drilled for) the LS fence have an opposite orientation. Is this orientation required for the LS fence? If so, am I limited to the Incra table? I just haven’t noticed other tables in this orientation, but maybe I just have to look closer.

If I decide I HAVE to have the Incra LS fence and it’s best paired up with the Incra table, do I really need to worry about the MDF construction? It just seem so Ike the hierarchy (in order of strength/stability) goes like this... Cast Iron, Phenolic, then MDF or MDF/Phenolic combo. Do I have 5is completely wrong?

thanks for taking the time to educate this novice. I’ve done a fair amount of woodworking, but I’m now exploring the next level of tools to outfit my shop before retirement. This next level leaves me with a lot of questions....

thank you,

Dean

[glenn bradley]

You can easily break $1000 on a router table/lift/motor/fence so it is worth researching and percolating about. What suits you best will depend on a lot of things. Will your tablesaw be mobile? If yes, I would go seperate. If not, the router table and tablesaw surface real estate can be shared and offer a lot of material handling and support options.

TS-Outfeed (37).jpg

I built my own base because I don't believe a tool stand that doesn't offer storage deserves to live.

RT 20160303.jpg

I also experience sag from the insufficient top support that a lot of frame-style stands have. This is easily overcome with a couple of additional stretchers that you can add yourself. If I were building today I would still run an enclosed base but, use more small drawers and lose the large bin on the left. I thought it was where a second router would go. I didn't realize that routers bred like rabbits.

As to top material, your locale will help you with that. In the desert basin where I live, laminated MDF tops do well and the current router table top has seen at least weekly use since 2009. If I lived where humidity swings were fair and the space was not controlled I would look to phenolic or cast iron. There have been threads about phenolic tops arriving in an un-flat state. I wouldn't worry about that as phenolic is flexible and adjustments to your supporting structure should be able to tune that out. Cast iron tops are often smaller than I need for a router table.

The Incra system is just that, a system. Your top design and the area around the table for clearance come into play. Think about what you plan to do and consider if the benefits of an incremental fence system offset the real estate required to use it. People who capitalize on the design of the system really get a lot of value from it.

[Nick Decker]

I mentioned in your other thread that I have the Woodpecker MDF table and fence, with the WP precision adjuster added to the fence. The precision adjuster is, in fact, very precise. It lacks the repeatability feature of the Incra system, but I can't say I've ever noticed that being a problem.

I do have to periodically adjust the set screws in the router plate to keep it flush in the table. I put some blue Loctite on the screws to keep them from vibrating out of position, but it still needs an occasional tweak.

[glenn bradley]

I do have to periodically adjust the set screws in the router plate to keep it flush in the table. I put some blue Loctite on the screws to keep them from vibrating out of position, but it still needs an occasional tweak.

Speaking as a long time MDF top user, a bit of super glue on the MDF in the locations where the set screws make contact makes a good wear barrier.

[Nick Decker]

Good idea, Glenn. What I did, per the WP instructions that came with the table, was mark where the screws would contact MDF and drive in a flat head screw under each one, so the set screw would be sitting on metal.

Seems like I only have to do it a couple times a year, so it might very well be seasonal swelling of the whole thing. It's always a very minor adjustment.

[Dean Moldenhauer]

Thanks, Guys.
Yes, the table saw and the router table (whether together or separate) will be mobile - and either way, yes, I will be north of $1K by the time all is said and done probably significantly north, but I've saved my pennies .

Thanks for the positive reinforcement about the researching and percolating - I am certainly doing plenty of that. I just want to make the best decision possible with the least regrets. It's made a little harder by the fact that I don't really know everything I will be doing with the setup. I'm a pure hobbyist and this is to outfit my shop[ in preparation for retirement in a few years. I might just be making bird-houses, but dang-it, they will be precise bird-houses .

I won't completely rule out making my own base, but was really looking at turnkey. A couple of options I was looking at in a steel/aluminum base frame would allow me to build some storage into the interior of the base itself, although not as efficiently as it would be if I built my own wood-framed mobile cabinet. I have a tendency to overbuild things... would probably end up with a monstrosity of a rolling router table. The advantage would be, I could go back to using a cast iron top and build my cabinet around that and not have to wonder how I am going to secure the CI top to a factory stand.... hmmmm, you're going to talk me into it. Have you seen some good plans for mobile router table bases, or did you just go by feel on yours?
With regard to the top material, I still would prefer cast iron - I just have to think about a) the potential corrosion and b) how to secure it to a base if I go with a manufactured base vs. building my own. If I go with a system like SawStop, I know it will all fit up just fine. Phenolic is looking like a contender for me, but there are issues there as well. I have talked to someone who said attaching anything to the underside (like a dust collection box) can be a little tricky because the phenolic is brittle. Just screwing into it might result in some chunks breaking out - not good. Drilling and tapping - maybe even epoxying in some threaded inserts might be required. Great... more to consider.
To your point about the Incra system... It is super cool, but I don't know if I would use it to it's potential enough to justify having to build everything around it. Worst case would be - I would have to start over with my router table quest if I decided I had to have the Incra system.

Nick, I will check out the Woodpecker offering a bit more. I focused in on a couple of brands and may have short-changed some others (WP, Kreg, etc.). I'll dig a little deeper.

Thanks to both of you for the tips re: the set screws gainst MDF. I will remember to come back to this thread for guidance if I end up going the MDF path.

Thanks again - a bunch!

Dean

[glenn bradley]

Have you seen some good plans for mobile router table bases, or did you just go by feel on yours?

I built mine to replace an open frame version as I was going to leave it in place so my needs had changed. It was my own design although it didn't require much visionary skill. I had used the router table long enough to (mostly) know what I wanted and what I didn't.

The open frames should offer a lot of options for building in a drawer box or other storage options. For me building around the commercial frame seemed more effort than just building to suit but, either way can work well for you. As far as attaching the top, a commercial frame or your own build could be enhanced with runners or cleats to position material in the locations required for fastening, yes?

Certainly going with a commercial frame would allow you to use the tool for some period of time and then build on the storage configuration that suits your (now more experienced) needs. I could see this as a win-win; you get to start quick, get some experience with the tool that let's you learn what things you want right at hand and what things can be a few steps away. Then you can build your storage to handle those requirements.

[Nick Decker]

Don't want to "over-push" the Kreg bench system, but one of the things I like about it is its modular approach. For example, the first one I bought was short and small, for a Dewalt jobsite saw I used to have. When I sold the saw, I just bought taller legs for the stand and now use it for a benchtop planer. All the legs and stretchers are interchangeable if you need to repurpose for a different machine.

[Dean Moldenhauer]

Glenn, that’s kinda’ what I’m thinking...I’ve got a project I would like to start soon that would be made a lot easier with a router table. I can get a stand now and either build cabinets into it or build a stand-alone mobile table later. Honestly, I won’t have a ton of storage needs right away, but it will be nice to be able to store bits there at the table as well as throat plates, maybe a jig or two if the cabinet is big enough. But, for now, I can walk to the bench...my FitBit will thank me.
It might be good to get a little time under my belt with the tool and then decide what kind of storage I need.

Nick, still looking at all my options. Flexibility is always a good thing, and modular might be a good thing. I have looked at a couple of videos on the Kreg table and it definitely looks like it would fit the bill. Just trying to get a good feel for the options available between the various manufacturers as well as the level of fit and finish.

I have budgeted a fair amount for this so I want to make sure I get as close to my forever tool as possible...if there is such a thing. Lots of options so I really, really appreciate all the help you guys are providing in making my decision.

Dean