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Thread: Speedup grinding & flattening

  1. #1
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    Speedup grinding & flattening

    Hey guys!

    I'm new here and new to woodworking, it's my weekend hobby and for now I want to establish essential hand tool skills and make some furniture pieces for home. I find using hand tools more enjoyable but also I don't have dedicated workshop and don't like noise. So reducing noise level in my living apartment is second reason for hand tools.


    I'm currently using manual grinding method and during that endless process I have a lot of thoughts about better uses for that time like woodworking. That all makes me and my dentist a bit unhappy. First because at the end of the day the result is so little and second because of psychological and physical tension in my jaws (funny but real). Anyway establishing proper bevel and flattening takes a lot of time, I think more than 90% of sharpening time. My goal here is to save some time and teeth.

    My current setup is DMT extra coarse diamond plate and an old eclipse carriage. Here is the photo, squaring bevel a bit. The longest part of entire process is re-establishing the bevel and flattening back. Sometimes that includes removing a lot to get rid of back bevel or rust caverns. These are two parts that I want to speed up and preferably hand over to machine.


    Establishing new bevel. That might be require in several cases, mostly for old tools but for some new occasionally too. For instance that old plane iron is not so bad. I would prefer hollow grind the bevel and then freehand it. I have several questions in mind here. What about gouges and turning chisels? They are not all flat and in contrast with scrub plane iron I don't have an idea on how to sharpen them with electric tool, would be nice to know the direction here.

    Where should I look here? I already have electric grinder (metabo ds175) but I'm not sure about shaft diameter and it doesn't have convenient tool rest. CBN wheel for old grinder and some shop-made rest? New grinder with tool rest from Tormek? Just Tormek grinder?


    Flattening. Wow, that takes a lot! Plane irons, chisels (I currently use cheap ones), small planes (yep, using diamond plate), marking knifes. Few weeks ago I have bought Japanese laminated marking knifes. The are supposed to have hollow grind at the back, however one of them had tip out-of-plane for a millimeter (guess what direction). I've spent almost a day flattening it and a set of 6 chisels, one marking knife took about 30% of time (at the end I gave up and grind a hollow on the back). More problems here: widest chisel was hardest to flatten because of higher downforce required.

    So, is there any way to make flattening faster and less painful? I saw Derek Cohen mentioned using flat side of CBN wheel for flattening, however I wonder about details. Should I just press it flat against the wheel or there is some trick to make sure it's lying flat? Or probably I could use belt sander, I have small one from Proxxon. What should I look into and what sounds more promising?


    Thanks,
    AZ

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Alexander Zagubny View Post
    Hey guys!



    I'm currently using manual grinding method and during that endless process I have a lot of thoughts about better uses for that time like woodworking. That all makes me and my dentist a bit unhappy. First because at the end of the day the result is so little and second because of psychological and physical tension in my jaws (funny but real). Anyway establishing proper bevel and flattening takes a lot of time, I think more than 90% of sharpening time. My goal here is to save some time and teeth.
    AZ
    Welcome to the forum, Alexander.

    I have never used a diamond stone or a sharpening jig so I can't comment on your specific problems, but rather make some general remarks. Preparing the tool is not 90% of sharpening. Compared to the routine periodic sharpenings, maybe something like 20,000 times over the life of a tool, the initial preparation is trivial. It does not make 1% of the time. I would do one chisel and not do another until you really need it. The real trick, however, is to avoid buying a new set every year. If a guy is good at flattening backs, maybe he has not concentrated on real woodworking. I have used a manual method for 50 years, but I have not done 25 chisels.

    Don't clench your teeth when woodworking. It is not helpful.
    Last edited by Warren Mickley; 06-17-2018 at 8:05 AM.

  3. #3
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    Hi and welcome Alexander!
    Diamond plates can wear fast when used on steel and the diamonds become quite smooth which make stuff like establishing a bevel or flattening backs pretty painful. I really need to go catch some shut eye so very quickly and not in depth this post will be.

    CBN wheel and veritas grinder tool rest is decently affordable. Very fast way to rehab bevels and keep some darn accurate hollow grinds going.

    80 grit PSA sandpaper on a known flat surface is a good way to flatten those pesky tool backs. For real I didn't think it would be so effective but after making plane irons and stuff like that it's pretty nice on the arms. brush off the metal dust or better yet use a magnet. With your honing guide you could grind your bevels in much quicker than that DMT.

    Your Japanese tools jumped out at me: it sounds like you should've peformed Ura-dashi. Especially on the Japanese laminated marking knives. A five minute ura-dashi session on a Kiridashi saved me from a potential half hour of lapping. Actually I had the tip problem too, perhaps the tip on these are suppose to be like that but I got mine in plane with the rest of the bevel with a few taps and.

    The wider Japanese chisels can also be tapped out. I tapped out a few kikuhiromaru chisels, saved myself days of sweating over diamond plates and sandpaper. These tools are hard steel and the more you lap at them the more surface area there is to lap as the hollow slowly disappears. Tap out chisels at your own risk. I'll get into trouble for saying this but I've tapped out Japanese chisels that usually people would say is too small ( not wide enough) to be tapped out. Chisels are harder to tap because of the "ears" of hard steel that adds strength to the chisel. Much more sturdy than a Kanna type sort of thing. There are a few threads about ura-dashi, Brian Holcombe has a nice write-up about it on his site.

    If you want to flatten using the side of a CBN wheel then make sure that the side has as much surface area as you can get, something like the mega square from wood turners wonders or whatever Derek is using. I would only use it lightly and then go by hand on sandpaper or stone etc, way way to easy to get carried away and do some real damage; don't ask me how I know that. With a belt sander; they just don't lend themselves to removing material accurately enough, even if you rigged up a precision platen. The belt and the vibration + belt tension etc etc. I ruined a couple of the first plane irons I made using a belt sander. The irons looked great when they were all nice and "flattened" by the belt sander but then upon checking it it was a wavy mess. just enough to cause a lot of pain but not enough where a lot of light distortion would happen. All that being said I'm sure you could do some hefty removal with pitted irons and stuff and just stay really alert and check often.

    What Warren said about the initial prep time being trivial is really important. That being said you could definitely streamline your process. I feel your pain on flattening a wide Japanese chisel on a diamond plate. It feels like the chisel is laughing at the diamonds and your arms. I stopped feeling that pain after I started doing Ura-dashi.

    Okay my brain is malfunctioning now and I need to wake up in a couple hours like everyone else. I might've just typed a lot of gibberish. Thats certainly what it feels like.

    Vince

  4. #4
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    I'm new-ish like you, and also doing grinding on old blades by hand only. I picked up a coarse diamond stone thinking it would make this better but as others have said it was a mistake, I probably overwore the poor thing on this job.

    80 grit sandpaper on glass is the fastest way it seems, and the trick is to use a whole lot of paper. If you want the job to go quickly you have to throw that worn paper in the trash constantly.

  5. #5
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    Get a Tormek. It's a little pricey, but it's a purchase you will never regret. I actually have two and I love it for just what you are dealing with. You use the side of the wheel to flatten the back, and the edge for grinding a bevel. The standard 220 grit wheel is excellent. If you want to further work the back after you have done the grunt work with the Tormek you can. You can see it here They also have a 6000 grit waterstone which I use to polish backs and establish a microbevel. Like I said, it is an investment, but once you have one you will never regret it.

  6. #6
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    Keep in mind guys, the OP is in Russia, so Tormeks and the like may not be easily obtainable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Liebert View Post
    I'm new-ish like you, and also doing grinding on old blades by hand only. I picked up a coarse diamond stone thinking it would make this better but as others have said it was a mistake, I probably overwore the poor thing on this job.

    80 grit sandpaper on glass is the fastest way it seems, and the trick is to use a whole lot of paper. If you want the job to go quickly you have to throw that worn paper in the trash constantly.

    This is the method I use also... 80 grit up through 400 grit sandpaper on a flat granite plate, then I switch to diamond stones. The coarse grits are MUCH quicker at removing metal.

    You only have to do this during initial blade prep, or if you damage the tool (dropping it)
    Last edited by Steve Kaminska; 06-17-2018 at 7:42 PM.

  7. #7
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    I saw Derek Cohen mentioned using flat side of CBN wheel for flattening, however I wonder about details.
    Hi Alexander

    As you appear to be aware, I manly use a 180 grit CBN wheel on a 8" half speed grinder. Just to clarify the above comment, the particular wheel has a large flat area. If the back of a blade needs to be flattened - and this is something I do very rarely - then the blade is placed on this flat side and the wheel is turned by hand. I do not power up the grinder for this task.

    Regards from Perth

    Derek

  8. #8
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    I've never found that I spend a lot of time grinding, except for flattening the backs of chisels and plane irons when I first get them.

    I'll be honest though: sometimes I don't bother to make them perfectly flat right away, and just let flatness come with time.

    For establishing bevels and flattening backs, I recommend sandpaper. If you want to do so on a stone, then a medium or fine India oilstone is quite capable. But really, you shouldn't have to do either of these things very often. Occasionally I chip my chisel when mortising, and have always found that a fine india stone makes short work of taking out the chips. The rest of the time I can do most of my sharpening on somewhat finer stones, such as my washita. I've never used a grinder and sharpen freehand: I find it to be easier and more reliable than using a jig, as you've discovered. Angle is not super important: I even like a bit of a convex bevel, but it's also very easy to maintain a perfectly flat bevel if you prefer.

    Diamond plates wear out quickly, as already mentioned. I used to be a big proponent of them, but after wearing out a few I moved to oil stones. A fine India and a hard arkansas are a very economic, fast, and easy to use combination. India stones are extremely fast if you refresh them with coarse grit sandpaper every now and then, and are very durable and resistant to wear. I'd recommend them over a grinder, and just use sand paper if you need something even coarser.

    As for flattening: you should only need to do that once. After a chisel back is flat, I don't touch it with my coarser stones. Keep it nice and polished and just remove the burr on your finer stone(s) rather than making deep scratches in it.

    Of course, there's no single right way to sharpen and these are just my preferences / experiences.
    Last edited by Luke Dupont; 06-18-2018 at 1:51 AM.

  9. #9
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    Thank you guys, that's a lot of replies!

    I'm totally agree that flattening is one-time operation for a tool. However I started with buying vintage tools that frequently requires flattening irons and soles and not a halfway there to restore all the planes I have. Like I have second stanley #4 to convert it to scrub or roughing plane with adjuster but I do hesitate to restore it since it will take 1-2 days for me. I'd better woodwork this time.

    I will definitely try sandpaper on glass but order suitable type of abrasive and probably sticky one that time. I started with sandpaper but using what is available locally and switching to waterstones was a relief. It sounds like that's the most convenient way for flattening.

    Derek, thanks for the explanation! And I want to thank you for your articles, a ton of useful information!


    Guys recommending Tormek. Do you re-grind the bevel using it or you use sandpaper? I think Tormek doesn't recommend heavy usage for their product.

    Added: My chisels are European type. With one being convex and cost about $15 I would rather replace that one.
    Last edited by Alexander Zagubny; 06-18-2018 at 6:05 AM.

  10. #10
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    [QUOTE=Warren Mickley

    Don't clench your teeth when woodworking. It is not helpful.[/QUOTE]


    That quote is going up on the wall in my shop! Thanks, Warren, as always.

    Kevin

  11. #11
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    I regrind using it, unless it's really off, then I use a high speed vertical grinder. I use my Tormek a lot, even if an iron has a poorly ground bevel and the back isn't flat, in less than 10 minutes I can completely rehab that iron and make it work again. That includes a polished microbevel. It's a work horse. If you use it so much that the wheel gets out of round, they give you a tool to redress the wheel into perfect shape again. I do this after a few months of use, or if I think I need to expose a new edge.

  12. #12
    Welcome to SMC all the way to Russia!

    If I'm dealing with a chisel or iron that is so out of flat I have to use grinding, it generally doesn't work out too well. I think at some point you have to realize what your time is worth and simply get a replacement of better quality.

    I agree with Vincent: re: diamond plates and sandpaper. Adhesive paper and stick to a flat surface like a piece of granite or thick glass works quite well.

    I have used a belt sander for flattening plane soles and irons, but its a bit tricky and the heat is generated very rapidly. Generally speaking, its a last ditch effort before buying something else. But I know of guys who routinely do it.

    Personally, I would never spend so much money on a Tormek when I only spend 2% of my time flattening a back. I can hone by hand in 2-3 minutes. So IMO if you can afford a Tormek, spend it on set of high quality chisels like Lie Nielsen (which will require no flattening BTW) and some replacement Veritas or LN plane irons (which will require only a light honing).

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Engel View Post
    I think at some point you have to realize what your time is worth and simply get a replacement of better quality.
    Hell yeah! I already bought Veritas skew block plane. Not only I honed it in a minute, it also works beautifully. It's much easier adjustable than any of my other block planes. The only downside is higher weight.
    However I'm not ready yet to spent $100 for each chisel. I want to first decide if like more butt chisels or regular ones and then buy one from Veritas choosing the most used size.

    I think I just had to restore several planes in a hard way to understand what it takes. I consider it being valuable experience that let me know how things work and better understand planes and sharp edges.
    I watched a lot of videos by Paul Sellers where he intentionally using minimal set of simplest tools. And I only recently started to realize that modern higher quality tools do provide benefits (either in performance or convenience or preparing time). Same goes for flawless joinery. If you are Mr Paul you don't need shoulder plane to fine tune the fit. Until recently I didn't realize it's ok to have one

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alexander Zagubny View Post
    Hell yeah! I already bought Veritas skew block plane. Not only I honed it in a minute, it also works beautifully. It's much easier adjustable than any of my other block planes. The only downside is higher weight.
    However I'm not ready yet to spent $100 for each chisel. I want to first decide if like more butt chisels or regular ones and then buy one from Veritas choosing the most used size.

    I think I just had to restore several planes in a hard way to understand what it takes. I consider it being valuable experience that let me know how things work and better understand planes and sharp edges.
    I watched a lot of videos by Paul Sellers where he intentionally using minimal set of simplest tools. And I only recently started to realize that modern higher quality tools do provide benefits (either in performance or convenience or preparing time). Same goes for flawless joinery. If you are Mr Paul you don't need shoulder plane to fine tune the fit. Until recently I didn't realize it's ok to have one
    I'm a fan of Paul Sellers as well, but it's definitely okay to go beyond the minimalist setup that he suggests

    I like people who boil things down to their most basic form and requirements: it allows you to really focus on what's important first and foremost, and then build up from there based on your specific needs. But, such an approach is just that: a starting point for you to build on given your specific needs

    I'm currently making do with even a way more minimal setup than Paul Sellers advocates, so we'll see how that works... [...]
    Last edited by Luke Dupont; 06-18-2018 at 11:22 AM.

  15. #15
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    We all have different interests in different parts of the craft. I do not have all new hand tools but, may have less used ones than many others here. I added up the time required to restore a <your example here> and made some hard decisions about how I wanted to spend my time. For some <your example here> I would put in the time, for other <your example here> I would buy better quality.

    Carrying around a short, straight steel rule when making your purchases will help. A chisel that has a back that looks like the Anji Bridge would just get left behind as, despite its other endearing features, would just take too much effort to get into workable condition.

    As I said, I have some fine old tools that were well cared for and are giving good service. I have also left behind many items that others may have been happy to snap up. Choose how you want to spend your time in the craft. No matter what, shaping and sharpening will still be part of your life. Only you can decide how much of a part it will be.
    "A hen is only an egg's way of making another egg".


    – Samuel Butler

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