Saddle square

[Mark Rainey]

Thanks for the wisdom from many experienced woodworkers! The reason I am interested in a saddle square is that I am mitering intersecting muntins & Charles Hayward in Woodworking Joints recommends a unique square I have never seen.88785799-FC56-4494-AD0F-8D79409E3A8A.jpg

[Simon MacGowen]

Dont have that book, and can't tell from your pic if that is a miter template or not. It should not be a saddle square, if the intention is to fine tune a miter joint.

You can make your own miter template or find something like this - http://www.thebestthings.com/newtool..._templates.htm

Simon

[Warren Mickley]

Thanks for the wisdom from many experienced woodworkers! The reason I am interested in a saddle square is that I am mitering intersecting muntins & Charles Hayward in Woodworking Joints recommends a unique square I have never seen.88785799-FC56-4494-AD0F-8D79409E3A8A.jpg

Yes, that would be a much better use of a saddle square than the Lee Valley people were suggesting. And yes, you can make such a square yourself. I would recommend a nice fine grained hardwood like hard maple, a dense walnut, yellow birch, or the like. Use all the precision you can muster.

I have made that joint many many times, but I use a slightly different system. I have a very small miter box with dovetail saw kerfs at 45 and 90 degrees. To make the slot as shown in C, I mark the slot only on the very back of the muntin stock and put it moulding side down in the miter box. I saw down to the edge of the rabbet (about 3/8), then I roll the stock 45 degrees so I can use the kerf in the back to start the kerf in the side bar. Then I roll another 45 degrees so the muntin is on its side and saw the rest of the way through the side bars. It is nice to have a miter box for small mouldings and the like, but care is need in making a box.

[James Waldron]

The quote Warren gave does not necessarily refer to a knife line: "Transferring a line..."

In fact, the Lee Valley photos there show only pencil lines. Knife lines are a different animal and are VERY easy to transfer with a square, esp. with a combo. sq.

Not so much if the lines are pencil lines whether they are 0.7mm or 0.5mm.

So saddle squares are VERY useful for transferring pencil lines and those advocating using a regular square to do that job are missing the point. Anyone who thinks they can outdo me in transferring pencil lines precisely and accurately with their regular squares (or a hinge)...should think twice.

Simon

In my shop, pencil lines are usually limited to shop furniture and other rough work if at all. For work that counts, I find a knife line is far more effective to get me the precision I need. In your shop, of course, it's up to you.

[James Pallas]

The quote Warren gave does not necessarily refer to a knife line: "Transferring a line..."

In fact, the Lee Valley photos there show only pencil lines. Knife lines are a different animal and are VERY easy to transfer with a square, esp. with a combo. sq.

Not so much if the lines are pencil lines whether they are 0.7mm or 0.5mm.

So saddle squares are VERY useful for transferring pencil lines and those advocating using a regular square to do that job are missing the point. Anyone who thinks they can outdo me in transferring pencil lines precisely and accurately with their regular squares (or a hinge)...should think twice.

Simon

Id like to think I'm pretty quick with a 6" double square because of a simple way a mentor of mine taught me. Always mark going away from you with a pencil. Start with the end of the pencil against the square but over the edge, just the tip of the pencil. When you roll the board you can see the mark and don't have to look over the edge to see it. It's habit now so I don't think about it. Towards you with a knife away with a pencil. When you roll the board to catch the back side from the trued edge you are looking at the line. Easy.
Jim

[Simon MacGowen]

In my shop, pencil lines are usually limited to shop furniture and other rough work if at all. For work that counts, I find a knife line is far more effective to get me the precision I need. In your shop, of course, it's up to you.

Yes, pencil lines can't match knife lines in many cases when it comes to precision, and few would argue about that, except those who are not familiar with their use, or except when machines are used. However, we are here talking about saddle squares, being made of aluminum, to be used mainly with pencils.

Warren has misunderstood the purpose and function of a saddle square when he thought the saddle square was to replace a try square or the like. A saddle square has its role and place in woodworking, and no one has suggested that it can take the place of a square, certainly not in laying out scribed lines. Equally, knife lines don't exist to replace pencil marks.

Simon

[Simon MacGowen]

Id like to think I'm pretty quick with a 6" double square because of a simple way a mentor of mine taught me. Always mark going away from you with a pencil. Start with the end of the pencil against the square but over the edge, just the tip of the pencil. When you roll the board you can see the mark and don't have to look over the edge to see it. It's habit now so I don't think about it. Towards you with a knife away with a pencil. When you roll the board to catch the back side from the trued edge you are looking at the line. Easy.
Jim

The process you described involves repositioning the square (from one face where the first mark is made) to a second face where the second (perpendicular) line is to be made. Correct?

A saddle square seats well on both faces where two lines are drawn, with no need for any alignment by sight or by anything.

Which method is easier and faster?

Simon

[Mark Rainey]

Dont have that book, and can't tell from your pic if that is a miter template or not. It should not be a saddle square, if the intention is to fine tune a miter joint.

You can make your own miter template or find something like this - http://www.thebestthings.com/newtool..._templates.htm

Simon

Thanks Simon. That Clifton mitre template is a beauty.

[Mark Rainey]

Yes, that would be a much better use of a saddle square than the Lee Valley people were suggesting. And yes, you can make such a square yourself. I would recommend a nice fine grained hardwood like hard maple, a dense walnut, yellow birch, or the like. Use all the precision you can muster.

I have made that joint many many times, but I use a slightly different system. I have a very small miter box with dovetail saw kerfs at 45 and 90 degrees. To make the slot as shown in C, I mark the slot only on the very back of the muntin stock and put it moulding side down in the miter box. I saw down to the edge of the rabbet (about 3/8), then I roll the stock 45 degrees so I can use the kerf in the back to start the kerf in the side bar. Then I roll another 45 degrees so the muntin is on its side and saw the rest of the way through the side bars. It is nice to have a miter box for small mouldings and the like, but care is need in making a box.

Thanks for the advice Warren. It makes sense.

[Bob Glenn]

I'm probably just a cheap old geezer, but that being said, I am amazed at the geegaws available for purchase that can (and maybe should) be made in the shop. I guess I've always just made do with what I've had around the shop or figured out an alternative solution to the problem at hand. Just my take, sorry if this offends.

[Mike Henderson]

Inspired by Derek's hinged saddle square, I went to the shop and made one. I discovered that locating the hole for the pivot is critical. Any error in centering and any angle in the drill hole will cause an error in the square. That is, I can set the square up to be perfect in one direction (one side), but if I fold the square over and try to use the other side, it will no longer be square.

I'm going to try again, but I don't know if I can drill a hole that accurate with the equipment I have. Otherwise, I'll have to mark the square so that I only use it in one direction.

Mike

Here's my first attempt. Works, but only on one side. I'll try another and see if I can drill the holes more accurately.

2018-06-18-Saddle-Square.jpg

[Simon MacGowen]

Please share a photo or two after you make one.

This is another example of a fancy SS -
http://www.bridgecitytools.com/defau...le-square.html

Simon

[Simon MacGowen]

but that being said, I am amazed at the geegaws available for purchase that can (and maybe should) be made in the shop.

I agree. My shop is full of shop-made jigs and accessories, some not available in any commercial alternatives. Some folks are willing to fork out $300 for a shooting board that can be easily made with less than $20 of materials or even scrap materials lying around in the shop. Or a $80 (?) handle....for a fret saw! But I will never be one of them.

Simon

[Mike Henderson]

I made another hinged saddle square and this time I worked hard to center the holes on the "hinge". This one is a lot better but it's still just a bit off when you fold it over. I'll mark this one with the outside so that I use it in the orientation where it's accurate.

This one is made from some ebony I had in the shop. Figured it would hold up well in use.
2018-06-18-Saddle-Square2.jpg

Some years ago, I made a bunch of dovetail saddle markers out of maple. You can see what they look like here. Someone could make a regular saddle square the same way, attaching the two pieces of wood with dovetails.
2018-06-18-Dovetail-Saddle-Marker.jpg

Mike

[Mark Rainey]

Nice work Mike

I made another hinged saddle square and this time I worked hard to center the holes on the "hinge". This one is a lot better but it's still just a bit off when you fold it over. I'll mark this one with the outside so that I use it in the orientation where it's accurate.

This one is made from some ebony I had in the shop. Figured it would hold up well in use.
2018-06-18-Saddle-Square2.jpg

Some years ago, I made a bunch of dovetail saddle markers out of maple. You can see what they look like here. Someone could make a regular saddle square the same way, attaching the two pieces of wood with dovetails.
2018-06-18-Dovetail-Saddle-Marker.jpg

Mike