Cord reel as sole 240V power source ??

[Dean Moldenhauer]

Hello. I am about to redo the feeder from my house out to my barn, the back half of which serves as my shop. The barn currently (no pun intended) has 240V service, but not enough capacity from the main panel in the house. I am planning on upsizing the breaker and the feeder out to the barn so it can support my well pump as well as extend out to my shop. I finished the walls of the shop a couple of years ago and only have 120V receptacles in the shop walls. When I bring 240V out there, I would prefer not to tear apart the walls to install the 3/C romex to support flush-mounted 240V receptacles.
So, I have a couple of choices:
A) surface mount conduit with the 240V circuits and install surface mounted 240V receptacles in a few locations.
B) Install 1 or 2 240V cord reels with the required receptacle boxes installed in them. that way, I could just pull the 240V close to whatever tool I'm running at the time. It's just me using the shop, so I would not need to run more than 1 240V tool at a time. If I do, I can install another cord reel or go back to Plan A.

Or... should I do both - some surface-mounted 240V conduit/wire and receptacles AND a 240V cord-reel?

This is part 1 of the multi-part shop re-vamp. Part 2 is building an addition to house my tractor so I get all my shop space back and part 3 is the fun part... purchasing the upgraded tools (e.g. 240V SawStop, welder, and the option to go with a 240V bandsaw and planer/jointer.

Whaddya' think?

Dean

[Bert McMahan]

I can say I run my shop in my garage and currently have a single 120V cord reel, and it's a giant pain in the butt moving it around constantly I'd recommend running dedicated lines where you can. I tend to bounce around from tool to tool, so changing cords and trying not to trip over things every time I switch tools is a pain.

If you're doing some veneering, for example, and run a board through the jointer, then bandsaw, then back again, that's an awful lot of cable swaps. Even if it's just you in the shop I'd bet you will wind up wanting to run cables. To each their own though- you may be fine with it, and running cables may be more of a hassle than it's worth.

For my vote, I'd say run dedicated lines where you can.

[Mike Heidrick]

You run 4 conductor to a subpanel from the main panel not 3 conductor.
You will then run a circuit back to the well pump from the sub panel.

At that point run an outlet from a cb in the subpanel. Plug in your cord reel and try it. If you dont like that run more circuits around shop.

[Jim Becker]

Cord reels have their place, particularly for temporary needs or occasional convenience, but I wouldn't personally use them for "regular" machine usage. All that coiled up cord tends to be longer than is really needed for a given tool and circuit and apparently, cord reels can sometimes "heat up" as the current goes round and round.

Were I you, once you have your power upgrade to the building in place, I'd put in new circuits and use surface mount conduit for convenience.

[Jim Andrew]

I have a 100 amp service to my shop, and just pick a spot to drop a cord down from the ceiling to serve that machine. My old neighbor was an electrician and he coached me as to how to power my machines. 100 amps would not serve the shop if I had others working and running multiple machines, but it is enough to run the AC, DC, and whatever machine I am running. I avoid keeping 2 machines running at the same time.

[Wade Lippman]

You will get tired of a cord reel real fast.

FWIW I put a subpanel in my old house to run 2 240v circuits and 2 120v circuits. I used a 30a breaker because I happened to have one, and planned on buying a 60a breaker. Never had to; I could run a 3hp cyclone and a 3hp tool with no problem.

[Mike Cutler]

Dean

It's up to you in the end, but if objective #3 is the end goal, I would prepare for that now.
-I would run the new service to the barn in conduit. Pull the appropriate sized THWN from the house to the barn. How big is your current service? What type of wiring? How many conductors are currently feeding the barn, not including the bare ground wire?
-Put in a new panel for the service you just pulled in.
- Sub the existing panel off the new panel, leaving the "as is" wiring intact.( You might have to disturb a little of the finished wall to accomplish this.)
- Run surface mounted conduit to the locations you need from the new panel. Run the correct sized THHN/THWN to the new receptacles. Be sure to leave some pull string in the conduit for that future expansion. If you know about where the tractor shop is going to be leave a few Tee's in place to pull through later. Remember you need lights, duplex receptacles, and 240.
- You have a boatload of code requirements that can't all possibly be answered here.

Lastly, are you sure you want to keep calling that building a "Barn". You might want to change it's official designation. " Barns" have some pretty onerous electrical code requirements. Barns hold livestock. Outbuildings, sheds and shops, do not.

PS
The cord idea is not a bad idea. Housing it in a reel, wouldn't be my choice. I have two, 5 hp, machines in my garage. Both have about 30 feet of SO cord attached to them that I plug into a single 30 amp plug depending on which one I need. I just swap them as necessary. One, a commercial washer, is only ever plugged in for about a week in July to wash horse blankets. The other is my air compressor.

[Tom M King]

Mike's subpanel idea is the best idea. Nothing interrupts my thought process, when I'm in the middle of building something, any more than having to unplug, and plug in tools.

[Dean Moldenhauer]

First of all... WOW! Thanks for all the great replies and input. This is such a fundamental part of a shop, I figured it might garner some good feedback, and I’m sure not disappointed.
Secondly, Moderators...sorry about putting this in the wrong place. I had just finished reading another electrical-related thread and it dawned on me to post this...didn’t even think about what section I was in.

i don’t know why I didn’t think more about it, but you guys are absolutely right. I have receptacles around the perimeter of my shop now but I think the ones at the end of the run where I tried to plug in my chop saw and table saw (both Bosch on the gravity rise stands) are suffering from a bit of voltage drop. I didn’t want to risk harming these tools so I use a 12 AWG cord reel to plug them into - from a dedicated circuit. You guys are right that this is a pain. I have a number of cordless tools that I’ve been using (track saw, trim router, sander, etc) so I was kind of forgetting what a pain it was to plug and unplug the bigger corded tools. That will only get worse as I start to build out my shop with more of the larger tools.

Mike and Mike, thanks for the tip on the sub panel feeder and the other electrical specifics. I will have an electrician out to do a lot of the job. I have done a fair amount of industrial electrical design and knew my way around the NEC pretty well, but I never did exactly this kind of design and I think I will leave it to the pros. I am going to run conduit underground from the main 200A panel in the house out to a sub panel in the “SHOP”. I just don’t know what size the subpanel will be yet...which will determine the breaker, conduit and feeder sizes. Still trying to get a feel for the current load at the house and what I can dedicate to the shop. I am going to be putting in the trench and conduit soon since I’m tearing up my back yard for a new septic. When I do that, I think I will put in a couple of 2” conduit to leave myself lots of options when I start pulling wire. Conduit is cheap and I can do that part myself.

The current service to the barn is a 30A and I’m reasonably sure it’s direct burial. I’m just going to think positively and say it’s cable that was intended for that. It’s been in service for the 25 years we have been here and likely a fair number of years before that. It will get retired when the new arrangement gets put into service.

Everyone else... thank you very much for sharing your experienced opinions. Definitely will be going surface mounted conduit and receptacles. Although, I may add a 240V cord reel for the incidental needs and flexibility. It just won’t be my only 240V source.

Cheers, and keep the shop electrical advice comin’. I am putting together my plan so I can give the electrician a good starting point and all this helps.

Dean

[Rollie Meyers]

One thing about cord reels is that even a lot of the good ones have limited ampere rating, whatever AWG the wire on the reel is not as relevant as what the reel is capable of handling.

[joseph mansker]

Dean,
I built a new shop about five years ago adjacent to my house and this is basically what i did. My home (which I built about 24 years ago) was set up with 400 amp service from the start. I have a 200 amp main service panel in the house. When I built the shop, I put a 20 circuit, 100 amp service panel in there, powered directly from the connections at the meter which were installed by my electrician, not as a connection to the main panel in the house. My electrician was able to put a disconnect switch at the service entry and pull #2 gauge copper wiring in rigid conduit which we buried about 12 inches in the ground to power the service panel in the shop.

I would recommend you determine the service rating to your house so that you can figure out how to terminate and control the connection via breaker or by disconnect switch to a service panel in your barn. As stated above, once you have a panel in your barn, you can run the circuits to power your equipment and your well pump. I have four dedicated 240v outlets in the walls and ceiling to power a ceiling mounted heater, a Miller 250 amp ac/dc welder, 3 hp Delta unisaw ,and a 3 hp Dewalt radial arm saw. I need to add at least three more to power my 5 hp air compressor, my 2 hp Delta long bed jointer and another ceiling mounted heater. I move my 2 hp Delta shaper and my 2 hp planer as needed and do not plan to have dedicated outlets for them. Right now I am switching cords at one of the wall outlets that is closest to the machine. Needless to say, there are multiple circuits for 120v outlets and lighting. I do have a 120v cord reel above my assembly table to keep the multiple cords for drills, jigsaws, miter saws, etc. off the floor and have found it to be a really nice addition in lieu of using extension cords. Just my 2 cents.
Joe

[Mike Cutler]

Doug

If the existing wiring has been in place for 25 years, don't be surprised to find a 2 conductor, 10AWG, UF cable, supplying the feed. It will look like romex at first glance, but the jacket is much much thicker. If this is what is in place, you really are better off running new. 2 conductors feeder wiring setups have been out of code for many years. Now you will need to pull 3 conductors plus ground.
That existing sub panel most likely a 6-8 POLE, main lug panel, and has ground and neutral on the same bus bar. When all is said and done those will be split up and you'll have a "true" neutral conductor. The grounding scheme will be changed no matter what. If thE panel is a main lug panel, when you install the new panel you can just sub right to it as long as you're meeting the disconnect requirements.
2' conduit is big. If you look at the cable fill for 2" conduit, you'LL have plenty of room for any future expansion. 2" conduit makes for really easy pull though.
I don't know where you live, but if it's a place that is prone to power loss, run two services in the same conduit. One to supply power to your new shop, the other to supply generator fed power back to the house. You really only want to do this once.
As were talking about conduit, consider running a separate 1" conduit for low voltage wiring.Specifically a CatV, or ethernet, cable for WiFi.

Lots of stuff to consider.

[Dean Moldenhauer]

Thanks, Joe and Mike. All great data points to put in my file to start nailing this down. I wish I had a 400-amp service in the house - that would certainly offer a lot more breathing room for whatever I want to do in the shop. But... short of having the utility replace the pole-mounted transformer and lines coming in from the road, I'm going to have to work with my more limited capacity. I have to do a little homework to determine what I can do from the house to the shop. I always just thought I would put a breaker in the main panel and feed the shop from that - I will have to look at what other options they are and what benefit they might provide.

Yeah, I'm definitely going full overkill on the conduit - It's just that 2" is sooo nice to pull through and, like Mike said, provides so much flexibility for future stuff. Internet to the shop is supplied via a Orbi router/mesh system (so wireless) and TV is provided via a portable DirecTV dish that I hijacked from the RV. Probably would be nice to have that connected to the system in the house for when that portable dish gives up the ghost + that would give me HD. I don't spend much time watching TV out there, but nonetheless...

I have a transfer switch wired into my house panel now, with selected circuits that are back-fed by a generator when needed. We don't lose power that often, but when we do, it can be a gamble as to how long we're out since we're in the country. That transfer switch is just set up to be cord-connected to a portable generator. It powers the fan on my backup propane furnace in the house as well as the fridge, some lights/receptacles and the garage (for the door openers and freezer) and the barn/shop (for the well pump). I will have to rethink how that is set up when I add the larger service to the shop. That's another thing I will bounce off the electrician.

Mike, I'm sure you're right about that old direct-burial cable and it's definitely going away - although it did what it was asked to do for quite a while. It will be nice to get everything installed in a well-thought-out way and with my current (and future) needs in mind. Right now it's been scabbed onto a bit over the years and just isn't ideal. I think it's reasonably safe (albeit not up to the latest codes), but needs a refresh. Will have to start talking to some electricians and see what I'll be looking at for cost of the new system. With the building boom/economy the way it is, bad time to be trying to get an electrician. I do have some current and former co-workers that are licensed though... wonder if they would be interested....

Thanks again for the info, gents!

Dean

[Mike Cutler]

Dean

I'm glad to hear that you'll be brining in a license. I think you'll be very happy 10 years from now.
Many times people think that it will be cheaper to just "modify", or "add onto" the existing service. Most times, it's not. Often times it's cheaper, and easier, to just start new, which is why I initially advised to just pull a new service.

I would guess that a 100-125amp panel will be installed. This panel will have a "main breaker". There will also be a breaker in your current service entry panel. The breaker in your newly installed panel is your disconnect. The breaker in the service entry panel will be the "feeder breaker".
It's not that you cannot directly feed a main lug panel without a disconnect, but there are rules, "codes", that apply for that configuration, and in the end you would not be satisfied with having to conform to them.

I don't think you'll have any problems getting help from current and former co-workers. Just don't ask them to knowingly violate the code, or skirt inspection requirements. If you can pull a homeowner permit and take care of the inspections, even better.
You'll be surprised at how much work is really involved, and the equipment resources to do it.

Good luck with your project.

[Bill Dufour]

I would not use a cord reel for over 20 amps. You do realize you are supposed to unreel all the cord before using it? High amp cord weighs a lot very fast. There is a reason AC welders do not coil the leads in nice tight circles while welding. I have never seen or heard it but the claim is tightly coiled ac lines will induce emf heating inside the coils.
My Mothers last job her last few days were spent running around inside the foundation of a particle accelerator disconnecting and insulating ALL the rebar tie points in about one acre of foundation. The designer had forgotten about induced power with ac coils. Of course we are talking about thousands of Horsepower worth of electric magnets switching on and off very fast.
Bil lD.