Help me choose a bandsaw size

[Edwin Santos]

Hi,
I am in the market for a bandsaw upgrade. I am considering the SCM Minimax and the choice is 16" or 20". My applications are dimensioning (resawing and ripping) 6-10" width boards, but also contour cutting parts, sometimes signs with a 1/8" blade.

The two models have the same motor size, 4.8 hp. Generally I lean to more of an artisan sized saw and less of a brute monster. However, setting price out of the equation, I have the idea that even with an identical motor, larger diameter, heavier wheels are better for cutting performance (inertia) and for reduced blade fatigue.

On the other hand, I have heard no reports of blade fatigue problems or performance limitations with the 16" machine and I sometimes wonder if the larger machines are built primarily for resawing and don't lend themselves to artisan work with narrower blades.

Then again, there seems to be some law of the universe where every time I use rational logic and buy a certain size of machine, I later wish I had bought the next size up.

I realize this a personal choice and there is no universal right answer, but I'd love to hear from others who have found themselves in a similar quandary.

Maybe the questions should be:
1. Has anyone ever bought the smaller machine in a choice and later wished they had gone bigger?
2. Has anyone ever bought the larger and later wished they had gone smaller?

Any feedback appreciated, Edwin

[Andrew Hughes]

Go big, 20 inch the longer blade will last longer. Might also have a bigger table.
I have a 20 inch and a 14. I would have gone to a 24 when I bought my 20 but I wasn't even sure if my electrical service could handle starting a 7.5 single phase motor.
I know it will now because Edison has been good to me.

[Van Huskey]

I own both (and bigger saws as well) and I think the MM20 is the best all around saw, one thing I like about larger saws is the larger table. Even of all the other capacity was the same the extra table size is highly appreciated, at least by me.

However, I did notice the desire to use a 1/8" blade, while it is doable on these saws with either a Carter Stabilizer, the Minimax "Cool Blocks" or chunks of hardwood held between the Euro guides (Blasco guides as I call them since AFAIK Sam Blasco was the first t use them) the flat tires on the MM saws is not remotely ideal for running a 1/8" blade. If the budget is set at the roughly $4500 price of the MM20 and you plan to use 3/16" and 1/8" blades often I would suggest getting the MM16 and also a 14" saw with crowned wheels. The venerable US made Delta is an excellent choice here and good ones at good prices are always on Craigs List as long as you are willing to drive a few miles. There are also plenty of good options new as well that won't break the bank.

I don't know where you are located but there are several MM16s on Craig's List in different parts of the country right now, you could use Searchtempest to check the area which you are willing to drive to.

[Jim Becker]

Of the two, I'd also select the larger saw. While they are going to be similar in cutting performance with the same motor, etc., the reasons that folks have already supplied are good ones...bigger wheels are easier on the bands and for you, there's a little more workspace to enjoy. I do agree with Van that if you will be doing some reasonable quantity of narrow blade work, having a smaller saw dedicated for that is a good idea. While you can run narrow blades on these bigger machines, they are not optimal for that with flat tires that will greatly reduce band life/set.

[John TenEyck]

If you want only one saw then I recommend you look at the 17" Grizzly G0636X. It has a 5 HP motor and heavy crowned wheels, so it can run 1/8" blades a lot easier than on the flat tires of the MM saws. But I'm with Van, I would buy the MM16 or the G0636X (which is every bit as good, IMHO, and a lot cheaper) and get a 14" saw, too. That's what I have in my shop. A 1" resaw blade stays in the Grizzly and everything else gets done on the Delta.

John

[Van Huskey]

If you want only one saw then I recommend you look at the 17" Grizzly G0636X. It has a 5 HP motor and heavy crowned wheels, so it can run 1/8" blades a lot easier than on the flat tires of the MM saws. ... G0636X (which is every bit as good, IMHO, and a lot cheaper) and get a 14" saw, too. That's what I have in my shop. A 1" resaw blade stays in the Grizzly and everything else gets done on the Delta.

John

The problem is what the G0636 gains in trackability for the small blades it gives away with the large minimum distance of the lower guides to the table and reduced blade control. Also, the delivered price between the G0636 and the MM16 is about $300, the Grizzly has lost most of its price edge since its introduction when it was indeed a lot cheaper.

[John TenEyck]

When I bought mine 2 or 3 years ago the price difference was over $1K. You're right, the difference now is only $300 or $400. The lower guides on the Grizzly are pretty low, but you can replace the stock table insert with a ZCI brass or wooden one if you need better blade support. In the end, running 1/8" blades is a compromise one way or the other on any larger saw, as you described above on the MM saws, which is why I kept my Delta.

I thought about redesigning the lower guide assembly so that it fits up closer to the bottom of the table, but the saw cuts so well with the 1" blades I use that I never got beyond just thinking about it.

John

[Van Huskey]

When I bought mine 2 or 3 years ago the price difference was over $1K. You're right, the difference now is only $300 or $400. The lower guides on the Grizzly are pretty low, but you can replace the stock table insert with a ZCI brass or wooden one if you need better blade support. In the end, running 1/8" blades is a compromise one way or the other on any larger saw, as you described above on the MM saws, which is why I kept my Delta.

I thought about redesigning the lower guide assembly so that it fits up closer to the bottom of the table, but the saw cuts so well with the 1" blades I use that I never got beyond just thinking about it.

John

These saws were just never designed for tiny blades, whether they are listed to run them or not. You can kludge them as I mentioned with a several methods including a Stabilizer (the one that fits the MM saws is listed as a Jet but I can't remember which OTTOMH and I assume there is one to fit the 636 but you would likely have to refer to the line drawings. Going down to 1/4" is no problem, the 1/8" and 3/16" really beg for a different saw.

At this point I think it is hard to argue the value of the 636 against the MM16, given the MM16 has a triple boxed spine and part of the only line of US available bandsaws made completely in an EU country including the cast iron. The resell is very high on the MM saws due to reputation and they don't carry the $600 price tag for tire replacement. I assume the 636's tires are vulcanized (the only reason I can think of to require wheels to be purchased to replace the tires) and while they should last a very long time Grizzly does not offer a replacement service as Agazzani did with their vulcanized tires. The 636 is a very nice saw just not the bargain it used to be.

[Matthew Hills]

Are the lower guides on the 636 any lower than on the S400?
(I thought the S400 guides were already quite low)

Matt

[Van Huskey]

Are the lower guides on the 636 any lower than on the S400?
(I thought the S400 guides were already quite low)

Matt

The MM saws let you adjust the guide to just under the table (very close) the 636 is much further away at the top and has a metal "blade guard" above the guides as well. The MM saws guides are tooless in contrast to the guides on the 636. If you are interested I can take a picture of the MM bottom guides, just let me know.

[Robert Cherry]

Make sure you consider the delivery cost of the SCM machines. When I spoke to Sam a few months ago they were considering moving to a “white glove” delivery model which carries a high cost. Not sure if it was ever implemented or not.

[Van Huskey]

Make sure you consider the delivery cost of the SCM machines. When I spoke to Sam a few months ago they were considering moving to a “white glove” delivery model which carries a high cost. Not sure if it was ever implemented or not.

I did, Minimax differs from Felder and Grizzly for example in that they have an actual dealer network and several of them charge no extra shipping and do not COLLECT sales tax. While I really like Sam if the factory can't match a dealer price I'll go with the dealer.

[Edwin Santos]

The MM saws let you adjust the guide to just under the table (very close) the 636 is much further away at the top and has a metal "blade guard" above the guides as well. The MM saws guides are tooless in contrast to the guides on the 636. If you are interested I can take a picture of the MM bottom guides, just let me know.

This distinction on the lower guide is good to know. However Van I think you're earlier point is the key one - that this class of machine was not designed for tight scroll cutting with very narrow blades (3/16, 1/8). The place where these machines really excel seems to be resawing and ripping.
This aspect of the discussion is reminding me about an urban legend I once heard that these Euro machines were not originally designed to have lower guides at all, and that they were only added to satisfy the US market. Maybe you'd know if this is true or not.
I can see where it might be the case, because it seems to me that wider, larger blades under high tension would be less reliant on the guides and thrust bearings, and might do just fine without lower guides, or with lower guides further from the table.

The feedback and the input is very helpful.

The table size of the MM16/S400p is about 17.5"x23.5" versus the MM20/S500p which is about 19.5"x27.5" so roughly 2" larger in one direction and 4" in the other.
Van, since you own both models, when do you find yourself heading to the MM16 instead of the MM20 and vice versa?

Edwin

[Van Huskey]

As for the myth or legend, I have heard it but never seen it verified, I simply don't know but it is a nice "tale".

As for what I use the individual saws for understanding I am a bandsaw nut or more likely a bandsaw idiot. I don't change blades, I change saws and have more saws that I am willing to admit. So each saw is limited to an individual task. My MM24 has a feeder and is used for heavy resawing and the occasional ripping (nice to have the long table). The MM20 is set up with a 1" Trimaster for my resaws I do by hand but are still tall and I am not worried about the kerf along with some ripping if the stock is so wide the feeder would have to come off the bigger saw. The MM16 is rather under-utilized since it is used for thin kerf hand fed resawing using a 3/4" Kerfmaster. I have other saws with progressively more narrow blades for contour cutting and one set up for bowl blank roughing.

Now, I am currently set up in a temporary shop as we recently moved and I am just finishing plans and permits for my new shop. I only have room in this shop for one bandsaw and chose the MM20 so I will avoid smaller than 1/4" blades unless I put on the Stabilizer and I am not sure I even have a 3/16 or 1/8 blade to fit currently. The MM20 is probably my call for the one saw to do it all but I would REALLY like a small saw or at least one with a good crown to handle the scroll type work but honestly, I rarely use them. Even though I have a dedicated saw for this I really only keep that saw because I really like the saw and having a 3/16" blade on it is my only justification to keep it, no matter how thinly veiled the justification is.

I don't think you would regret a MM20 purchase and keep in mind if you really need a small blade but aren't using it daily even the small 10" Rikon will handle that work but 14" saws are literally all over CL all the time despite the fact many owners think their vintage US Deltas are worth a mint there are a lot of them sanely priced.

[andy bessette]

My own choice was a 20" Agazzani (with 1" carbide blade) and a 14" Delta-X5 (with 1/4" blade). This setup seems perfect for me in my overcrowded shop. Bought the two machines in like new condition for ~$2,000.