"Brite" Nails in Treated CCA wood ??

[Marc Jeske]

An acquaintance just had a typical Pole Barn framed... 6x6 CCA .60 posts, treated bottom girt,regular untreated purlins, girts, and trusses.

Still confirming, but there is evidence that the builder used Brite nails, NOT Hot Galvanized.

Frame is still open, steel sheeting not yet installed... so ALL connections are still totally accessible.

What now?

Maybe, not sure yet, that the Brite nails were ONLY used on the NON treated connections.. basically just the truss purlins... but even then.. in a pole barn possibly damp location.. condensation possible etc.. wouldn't a prudent builder use the Galv there also ?

Is there Code on the above question?

So, ya... What now ?

Marc

[Jim Becker]

I think I would probably be concerned with this if the "bright nails" are not SS. My understanding is that with the various methods of treated lumber, "bare" nails are a no-no.

[Marc Jeske]

No, not SS, box said "Brite"

Marc

[Frederick Skelly]

Marc, you have more "adventures" with contractors in your neck of the woods than most folks I've seen. I bet that gets pretty old, huh?

(Off topic - did you get that retaining wall sorted out ok?)

Fred

[Marc Jeske]

Retaining wall - Yes all done.

Cutoff at grade the crooked posts, re augered between them to place new posts.

Thanks for asking ! Marc

[Marc Jeske]

Seriously, I love people and have faith in them... but the longer I'm here, especially in the Geo area the last 7 years, sooo many workmen are Morons.

Amazing.

Sweeping generalization here... but there seems to be parallels between talking slow, using sloppy un specific terms ( such as referring to a Joist as "Dat board dere") and being just plain un studied ignorant, and additionally, NOT interested in improving or learning.

Totally amazing.



Marc

[Jim Andrew]

Would not be concerned about bright nails into untreated wood. Treated wood will corode the nails, so last I heard we should use double dip galvanized. Don't like galvanized nails if not required, the galvanize seems to act like a file, and loosens the hole as it is driven in. Personally, more I use screws the better I like them, but seems to me they need a pilot hole drilled to eliminate cracking.

[Marc Jeske]

Jim Becker - Re: Edit - No problem, I understand, was just venting.

But it IS true !!

Sorry.

Marc

[Marc Jeske]

Jim Andrew - I am OK w the Brite nails into totally untreated connections.

Would still prefer Galv in Damp environment, but kinda maybe I guess OK w Brite.

I, myself, would use Maize USA made ringshank HDG for most applications exposed to damp, certainly always in Wet.

My MAIN concern was into the CCA .60 wood.

I also know from research that some of the newer treatments are MORE dangerous than the old CCA to the fasteners.I love screws also, BUT... in MANY situations in building, like Decks, framing, etc... Nails are actually BETTER than screws due to their ability to bend not break.

I did not know that some time ago, but after Googling and reading study, I learned that.

Also, be aware that Borate treated wood is not as corrosive.. IBC 2304.9.5 or nearby.

Check it out if interested.

IBC 2012 FREE FULL download -

https://ia800609.us.archive.org/9/it...c.ibc.2012.pdf

Marc

[John K Jordan]

...I love screws also, BUT... in MANY situations in building, like Decks, framing, etc... Nails are actually BETTER than screws due to their ability to bend not break.

In what specific situations are nails better? I use screws on a lot of framing on farm buildings here and decks. I can't remember ever breaking a screw when installing except when one lumber yard sold me a 25# box of junk where every tenth head twisted off.

Or do you mean stresses later in the life of the structure might cause a screw to break? And do you mean wood-to-wood framing or on joist hangers?

On the other hand I've seen plenty of nails loosen. (For heavy beam to post I like to use big carriage bolts if possible or lag screws or the newer framing screws.)

JKJ

[Jim Becker]

I believe screws are a great solution...as long as the CORRECT type of screws are used. I use screws almost exclusively because I cannot handle the shock from using a hammer. (Yes, I own a framing gun, but it's heavy and I only use it for indoor projects since that's what I have a big box of fasteners for. )

Marc, I really do think your acquaintance needs to address the concern with the contractor and either get them to nail properly or provide a substantial warranty on the work.

[David Helm]

With the newer pressure treated lumber, hot dip galvanized, not hot galvanized are the recommended nail. The bright nails will be gone in a fairly short period of time. In this area, hot dip galvanized are required by the building permits.

[Mark Blatter]

In what specific situations are nails better? I use screws on a lot of framing on farm buildings here and decks. I can't remember ever breaking a screw when installing except when one lumber yard sold me a 25# box of junk where every tenth head twisted off.

Or do you mean stresses later in the life of the structure might cause a screw to break? And do you mean wood-to-wood framing or on joist hangers?

On the other hand I've seen plenty of nails loosen. (For heavy beam to post I like to use big carriage bolts if possible or lag screws or the newer framing screws.)

JKJ

As I started building my shop, I used some screws, and planned on using many more. However several neighbors are contractors and helped me with lifting the walls and placing trusses; all said no way on using screws. Most screws are not structural and do not have the shear strength of nails. They said it is against code to use screws only. Fine in addition to nails, better than just nails, but I had to use nails for shear strength. I added screws in roof sheathing, in particular around the edges due to winds we get here and on the framing for added strength in case of an earthquake (gonna happen some day here too), but used boxes of nails.

One contractor, who builds houses and is now doing schools, told me about building a deck for a customer early in his career using screws only. Inspector made him take it all apart and rebuild with nails, again for shear strength. I too have twisted many heads off from screws. The only structural screws I could find are Simpson and they are expensive.

[Brian Behrens]

I think the contractor needs to, at a minimum, go back and add galvanized nails in the pt wood. That way your friend will still have some nails holding things together in a few years. Is there a written contract that says the contractor must follow code and generally accepted construction practices? That guy would be fired from my site. It shows a total lack of concern for the quality of the work. An extended warranty would be worthless in my book. I've sued subcontractors in the past for substandard work. It usually results in a waste of time and money with no return. You get a judgment, and a lien, but the problem still needs to be fixed at your expense.

[Tim Bueler]

CCA, Chromated Copper Arsenate, treatment requires HDG, Hot Dipped Galvanized, fasteners. The newer ACQ, Alkaline Copper Quaternary, is much more corrosive (alkaline) and according to code requires either Double HDG or preferably Stainless Steel (which can look just like Brite). This includes framing hardware that comes into contact with the treated wood, joist hangers, nail plates, post bases, etc.

Borate treatments, I don't know how corrosive it is, it's not available in my area, but according to what I've read it's water soluble so it's use is limited to mud sills, bottom plates in basements, etc. It is NOT approved for direct burial or water contact AFAIK.

None of the new treatments last as long as the CCA. The CCA doesn't last as long as the old creosote treated wood. Begs the philosophical question of which one is the most environmentally friendly (or least unfriendly, as the case may be).

Screws can be used for frame construction as specified by an engineer and approved by the building department (for those still living in highly regulated jurisdictions). Only certain screws are code approved for structural applications and most/all of those have stamped heads indicating what they are. Personal opinion doesn't matter if you are building a code approved and inspected building. Your building inspector will have the final say (without going to great trouble and expense).