We Build Things Different Here

[Eric Keller]

Here in Central Pennsylvania, it can be a struggle to get people to build things to the standard you want. They adopted the international code, so I assume things have gotten a little stricter. I know there was at least one builder that built to a higher standard that went out of business during the 2008 downturn. The real estate market didn't really tank here, but nobody was building.

[John Stankus]

Some of the construction methods here are certainly different than in the Chicago area but, as has been said, that doesn't mean one is better than the other.

When it comes to water in the footing trench however, it always means weaker concrete, everywhere on the planet. ....

Actually, curing of concrete is a chemical process. If the concrete drys out it will not cure properly.

Here is a paper comparing wet cure and dry cure of various concretes showing the wet cure having higher compressive strength.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...60132306002113

Now that being said, since it is a chemical process it takes time to complete. Rule of thumb is about 28 days as I understand. So they should have let it cure longer.

Here is the Portland cement association talking about how the compressive strength develops (and that it needs to be kept wet during cure).
http://www.cement.org/learn/concrete...n-construction

Now, I can see where up where it gets cold having a limitation due to the possibility of freezing causing the concrete to break up before cure due to water's expansion on freezing (why ice cubes float).
There is a demo that you can buy from some of the educational suppliers, that is a cast iron ball with a fill plug. You fill it with water, put it in the freezer, and the expansion of the water on freezing breaks the cast iron.

John

[Jason Roehl]

Maybe they used hydraulic cement? Cures underwater.

[Perry Hilbert Jr]

One guy two miles up the road, built his home on pilings like beach construction. Well the execution didn't anticipate the base or depth of the pilings and the whole thing started to wobble north within 12 months. So he quick built a concrete block foundation around the exterior to hold the house from further racking. Except that where the pilings on the south side stuck out to the foundation line, he built up the block in between and then sawed off the pilings so he could finish the block wall. As it is the house is visibly canted from one side to the other. Maybe 2 inches over 40 ft. just enough to be noticeable from the road. So he put up a fence to prevent folks from seeing it from the road. I can just imagine what a real estate agent would say about possible resale.


Different doesn't mean better, but it does not necessarily mean the " same or better" either.

When my house was built, there was a circuit added after plans but before completion and the electrician used 12 ga wire to run to a few added receptacles in the basement. The inspector showed up before the electrician left and rejected the electrical because the wire "was too heavy" for the 15 amp circuit breaker in the box. I called the electrician in and they talked for 10 seconds. The electrician pulled out the 15 circuit breaker and plugged in a 20 and the inspector signed off. I still do not understand how wire fit for a 20 amp circuit is not fit for a 15 amp (lesser) circuit.

[Robert Engel]

I'm betting the concrete displaced 95% of the water in the footers during the pour. I'm also betting they used a stiffer mix.

When I worked for a general contractor in So. FL many years ago, it was common practice to see the block on site before the slab pour and the block layers to show up within 2 or 3 days later. They laid 1/2 walls the first day, the top 1/2 the next, then we framed for the tie beams the next day and poured the tie beam and columns the day after that.

2 days after that, we stripped the tie beam forms and started mounting trusses.

By the time the supposed 28 day cure was over the drywall was either done or going up. If this was not according to code, then we must have been getting away with it. Guess that's why the boss always had a case of JD in the back seat LOL.....

Bottom line: yes construction methods vary by region but "should" be done according to code. When I worked, the foundation had to be inspected prior to pouring.

[Pat Barry]

Nobody is going to wait 28 days fir a full cure before laying block. In Minnesota thats nearly half the building season. 2 days is plenty.

[Mark Bolton]

When it comes to water in the footing trench however, it always means weaker concrete, everywhere on the planet. But if you pour the concrete stiff enough and there isn't a lot of water, the presence of water may not be an issue. However, when you use a pumper, you can't have a really stiff mix. That being said, unless you do a compression test, you will never know the strength of the concrete. I didn't see any samples set aside. You see that all the time on commercial sites but almost never on residential sites.

Operating in New England, and for the last 20 years in the Mid Atlantic, I have simply never seen, nor experienced, any form of a slump test or roded samples being taken on a residential job. It just doesnt happen and is completely unnecessary. In many location rebar is not even required in a residential footer or foundation. I have also never hear a 4' a day rule for laying CMU's or even brick for that matter. Now of course laying up a chimney you have to quit before the wet mortar below keel's the whole thing over (have seen that happen many times in rushed sub-divisions when the masons got ahead of themselves). But commercial jobs lay WAY more than 4' of vertical in a single day all the time. Heck, their leads are taller than 4'.

With regards to pouring concrete in water, its true that pouring "through" water is an issue. But bridges are poured every single day with Tremmie pours and if the concrete is placed at the bottom and not allowed to fall through the water it will result in a pour stronger than a conventional pour. We have had to float out footers full of water several times and placing your material at the bottom of the footer will simply raise the water straight out to the first daylight drain you can get to. Now if they were holding a chute 5' off the ground and letting the mix fall 5' through clear air, then through the water, you could definitely have an argument that the mix isnt going to be as strong as it could be. However, in a residential application, its likely still dozens of times stronger than needed.

Its wonderful when things are perfect. But holding a residential foundation to commercial bridge/building construction standards will be an exercise in expense that most people will love to complain about, but wont be willing to sign the check to pay for.

[Mark Bolton]

Maybe they used hydraulic cement? Cures underwater.

All cement cures underwater. Given the mix is not overly diluted (mix being dropped through water) a bag of sackrete mixed and placed underwater will be stronger than the same in a sidewalk.

[Mark Bolton]

Here in Central Pennsylvania, it can be a struggle to get people to build things to the standard you want. They adopted the international code, so I assume things have gotten a little stricter. I know there was at least one builder that built to a higher standard that went out of business during the 2008 downturn. The real estate market didn't really tank here, but nobody was building.

I dont think there is any state in the US that hasnt adopted the IIRC or the IBC for perhaps 20 years. Now there will be many states that have no enforcement of the code, but that said, Im pretty sure every single state in the nation has had a statute that binds anything built state wide to be adherent to the adopted code. I am in a state with virtually zero enforcement outside any city limits with regards to anything other than an electrical entrance, or a septic system. There are no inspectors or inspections whatsoever for anything other than installing a septic, or installing your electrical entrance which the inspector will not look at any internal wiring at all beyond the meter and to the main panel. That said, the code is bound state wide.

We fought this issue for years with customers who would argue when we built a house that we were wasting our time with central wired smoke detectors, T&P relief valves on water heaters and boilers, virtually any time you mentioned code they thought you were an idiot. That argument stopped the day they moved in and their homeowners insurance sent out their inspector and they passed with flying colors. They would make our lives living hell while we built and then afterwards oh.. they were the smart ones with the well built home... lol.

[Julie Moriarty]

I'm betting the concrete displaced 95% of the water in the footers during the pour. I'm also betting they used a stiffer mix.

When I worked for a general contractor in So. FL many years ago, it was common practice to see the block on site before the slab pour and the block layers to show up within 2 or 3 days later. They laid 1/2 walls the first day, the top 1/2 the next, then we framed for the tie beams the next day and poured the tie beam and columns the day after that.

2 days after that, we stripped the tie beam forms and started mounting trusses.

By the time the supposed 28 day cure was over the drywall was either done or going up.

Every house we've seen go up near here takes a year to finish.

[Chuck Saunders]

One method is to wet set the block first course into the footer instead of having to deal with irregularities in the footing surface. We always pump out the footings before placing concrete.
Chuck

[Bill Dufour]

The 30 day rule is for having machines like lift trucks on the concrete. They say the old Roman concrete is still curing and getting stronger. Short answer is make a stronger mix if you want to use it in under 30 days. Of course you are supposed to allows stucco to wet cure for at least 30 days before painting. never seen that done here.
I do wonder why they do not use color coat stucco anymore. painting stucco seems like a huge waste of time and money, especially for the earth tones that colorcoat could easily match.

Bill D.

https://theconstructor.org/concrete/...-28-days/6060/

https://theconstructor.org/concrete/...-28-days/6060/

[Mark Bolton]

The 30 day rule is for having machines like lift trucks on the concrete. They say the old Roman concrete is still curing and getting stronger. Short answer is make a stronger mix if you want to use it in under 30 days. Of course you are supposed to allows stucco to wet cure for at least 30 days before painting. never seen that done here.
I do wonder why they do not use color coat stucco anymore. painting stucco seems like a huge waste of time and money, especially for the earth tones that colorcoat could easily match.

Bill D.

https://theconstructor.org/concrete/...-28-days/6060/

https://theconstructor.org/concrete/...-28-days/6060/

The normal convention for colored stucco we have always seen is Dryvit. A lot of people got scared off it due to major nightmares due to poor install/envelope issues, but you can run it in nearly any color and get insulation to boot.

[Mark Bolton]

One method is to wet set the block first course into the footer instead of having to deal with irregularities in the footing surface. We always pump out the footings before placing concrete.
Chuck

We've seen this done endlessly on residential work. Even if they dont wet bed the first coat in the footer concrete it's much easier for them to knock down or chop out a high spot in footers that are hours old. I dont think the practice flies in the commercial world because you can bed a given block on a piece of aggregate and when the concrete shrinks there will be a failure if the aggregate is against the block.

Mortar is only there to evenly distribute the load eliminating point loads, and for leveling the courses. We use to do a lot of surface bonded dry stacked walls with a mortar course every 4' or so for leveling only. I've never understood why that method never took hold.

[Bill Dufour]

The normal convention for colored stucco we have always seen is Dryvit. A lot of people got scared off it due to major nightmares due to poor install/envelope issues, but you can run it in nearly any color and get insulation to boot.

The water company here used something like that in the mountains for pump houses or some such small buildings. woodpeckers punched holes in it in short order. I think squirrels or such then went inside and destroyed lots of equipment.
To me color coat stucco is just regular stucco mix with handfull of colored powder added to the mix. It is just the final topcoat. The color should last for thousands of years with minimal fading. Cost is just a few dollars extra per mixer load. You know just the paint itself costs more then that not including the perpetration and application costs.
Fog coating is a very different process that is nowhere near as good.
The color coat is also used on concrete such as sidewalks and porches. often tinted red. They used to add lampblack to concrete to tint it gray so it wa snot as bright and reduce sun glare. They no longer do this to save a few dollars. Notice the difference in 50 year old area of sidewalk glare on a sunny day. That concrete is not old and dirty it is tinted just enough to cut the glare.
Bill D
T