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Thread: Is This Bit Ruined?

  1. #16
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
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    Iowa USA
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Bolton View Post
    Im not sure where your math is coming from. But if you dont think a wood chip carries away heat you will have to tell that to my chip pile when we empty the drum. If you stuff your hand in the drum its HOT. Im not talking combustible hot, but its HOT. Wood chips, MDF chips, Melamine chips, all of them, absolutely carry off heat.

    The feeds and speeds in the OP's post are way off for us but its a difficult balance between what your machine is able to achieve with regards to your tooling selection.

    I have popped the lid off the drum of the cyclone that feeds the CNC and been met with a burst of warm, wet, air. When I look in and see chips instead of powder (Mdf excluded) Im happy.
    Yup, I was way off base confused on the chip load.
    Retired Guy- Central Iowa. , Ray Fine 20w Galvo Fiber laser , LightObject 40w CO2 Laser and Chiller, MakerGear M2 3D Printer. Qe60+ Vinyl cutter. Automation Tech Chinese 6040 Router running on Mach3 and UC400ETH

  2. #17
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Dawson Creek, BC
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    769
    Mark, I am surprised you do not have to onion skin that much. I might be doing so too frequently. A single pass thru 3/4" melamine would be better than two passes. I might have to experiment with some scrap. I am never bothered by little small amounts of chips in the grooves, but when I have a groove full of hot chips I know I am not doing my bits any favors. I was cutting some cherry a few days ago and had that problem. In that case I was using my pods, and then my DC system is hopeless because of the amount of open air below the boot. I have had a few occasions where using my air wand to remove chips tripped my spindle, so now I am a bit paranoid about blowing out the groove except when the spindle is off. I have an 80gal air tank, but I think one of my regulators has a small leak. I think it is the expensive Milton one too. I need to stop buying those.

    Casey, I think we have established your bit is likely ok. You will need to clean it up and test different options as suggested. I know virtually nothing about the capability of the Axiom. With a rapid speed spec of 200ipm you might want to try using 1/4" bits whenever possible. I know you mentioned bit deflection, but I doubt the steel bit will be the part of this that might cause issues. We all have odd ideas about bit deflection, but if you keep the bit protrusion to a minimum it is not often the cause of sizing problems. I would look into single flute bits as well. We all go thru a phase of figuring out what works for our machines.

  3. #18
    I do like the cleanup with when we do onion skin as there is no need to chase the spindle around and the table is almost spotless when unloaded but its an entire pass wasted. I thankfully dont have the issue with the air as we have plenty. A lot of it is job/material dependent. If we are running melamine or laminate (shiny, great vac holding) we have had no problem holding very small parts especially if I can cut from one end of the sheet to the other and kill zones.

    As you say with regards to the OP, setting up jobs based on the 200IPM would be my tact. Run the machine as hard as it can with the bit that allows you to run wide open.
    Sometimes I just want to look at pretty pictures,... Thats when I go to the Turners Forum

  4. #19
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    Cleveland OH
    Posts
    190
    Hey Casey,

    I was the person that gave the advise on your last post. Your bit looks alright, I would clean it with some bit cleaner and make sure its still sharp.

    I would Check out Amana Bit

    #46170 - 1/4" Compression - Requires a Min First Pass of .3" - Better Edge Quality with this bit
    #46350 - 1/4" Mortise Compression - Requires a Min Pass of .125"

    You should be able to get more speed out of these bits - With your Machine being on the lighter end I would avoid Bigger bits - The bigger the bit the more power and machine stability you need. I would try to go faster and see how deep you can make your passes - Running a 3/8" bit in your case provides no benefit, If you had a larger machine a large bit would allow you to make deeper passes at higher speeds. Try out the 1/4" and work from there

    I wanted to add to Marks response about the hot chips from his Router. I can turn my DC off and feel the chips left on the table and there is little to no Heat. Your dust collector is generate alot more heat than your Router is (At least in my Case - 10 Hp High Vac) When you feel warm chips in your Dust bin its most likely caused by your Cyclone and the heat generate by your DC. Sure the wood chips carry a very small amount of heat away but its nothing like cutting metal.

    Bits like the OP is using, are able to run at 1500 IPM - Not many users have the machines to take full advantage of these bits. I was at a Multicams open house a few weeks ago looking at there 5000 series and they where running cabinet parts at 1500 IPM - I can run the same parts with the same bit at 400 IPM - The same bit on the 5000 Series will have a longer life than it will on my Smartshop 2s. We are getting close to placing our order for a new 5000 series router - Once we get it Ill make a video showing the life difference. Local friend with a similar setup says we could see a 4 - 8 sheet difference in bit life with the faster machine (Depending on the complexity of the parts).
    Last edited by Robert Bonenfant; 06-05-2018 at 10:33 AM.
    3X Camfive 1200 48" x 24" 100watt Tube
    Zcorp 450 3d Printer
    Laguna Smartshop 2 - 4x8 ATC

  5. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Bonenfant View Post
    Your dust collector is generate alot more heat than your Router is (At least in my Case - 10 Hp High Vac) When you feel warm chips in your Dust bin its most likely caused by your Cyclone and the heat generate by your DC. Sure the wood chips carry a very small amount of heat away but its nothing like cutting metal.
    They definitely dont hold heat like metal chips do but we feel warm chips very often whether it be on the router, shaper, molder, etc.. We recently ran a bunch of very deep texture panels in MDF with a 1.5" bull nose bit and in the deep profiles when dust shoe was little help and the cutter would sling the chips (MDF chips lol) to the back of the machine and pile them against the tool changer, they were absolutely warm when you swept them off into a barrel with your hand. Same thing happens when we are running heavy on the shaper with an operation that will toss chips away from the hood, you can feel they are notably warm. In our experience though MDF always gets a bit warm with the bullnose and the tip of the bit basically rubbing a lot.

    I wouldnt say Id notice it on 1/2" pre-fin ply with a 3/8 compression but there is noticeable warm for sure running full pass on melamine for us. If I stick my finger in the cut its warm.

    I think the point of the conversation, and what Jim regularly points out about a well formed chip/cornflakes, is that its very common for super slow speeds and the bit is just grinding itself to death making powder being run too slow.

    We are running about 40 sheets over the next couple days I will stick my finger in the cut occasionally lol. Its all 1/2" pre-fin ply. Be fun to check.
    Sometimes I just want to look at pretty pictures,... Thats when I go to the Turners Forum

  6. #21
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Santa Fe, NM
    Posts
    59
    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Bonenfant View Post
    Hey Casey,
    Bits like the OP is using, are able to run at 1500 IPM - Not many users have the machines to take full advantage of these bits. I was at a Multicams open house a few weeks ago looking at there 5000 series and they where running cabinet parts at 1500 IPM - I can run the same parts with the same bit at 400 IPM - The same bit on the 5000 Series will have a longer life than it will on my Smartshop 2s. We are getting close to placing our order for a new 5000 series router - Once we get it Ill make a video showing the life difference. Local friend with a similar setup says we could see a 4 - 8 sheet difference in bit life with the faster machine (Depending on the complexity of the parts).
    Anxious to get your impressions of the 5000 compared to your Smartshop2. I suspect you'll love the controller.
    Semi-retired, teaching CNC for Fine Woodworking at the local community college. FineLine Automation Saturn 2, EnRoute Pro, Aspire, Mach3.

  7. #22
    Hi Robert,

    I have and started off using the 46170 but the reduced chipload on the Amana data sheet vs the 3/8 (0.001" vs 0.0036") had me thinking I needed the bigger bit for faster feeds and greater DoC, which I wound up avoiding anyway. Would like to run the 1/4 around 100-130 ipm. The formulas here tell me that if Amana calls out an operating RPM of 18,000 and 0.001"cpt, then

    1.) SFM=0.262*0.25*18000=1179 SFM
    Being conservative
    2.) Speed=1000 sfm*3.82/0.25"=15,280 RPM
    3.) Feed=15,280 RPM * 2 fluted * 0.001" cpt = 30.6 ipm

    These numbers seem way off what you all are recommending.

  8. #23
    If you look at Onsrud’s equivalent 1/4 compression bit (60-100) they recommend a chip load of .015-.017 for cutting soft plywood. I think that this type of chip load is more realistic (you want chips, not dust. I typically run closer to 12000 rpm (my machine cannot go fast enough to utilize 24000 rpm), this would give speeds in the 340-400 ipm range. I do not know why Amana has such conservative chip loads.

    I would certainly try running at 12000 rpm at your desired speed around 120. Then try 150! You should get chips, you should find the chips are warm and the bit is not.

    Onsrud data: http://www.onsrud.com/files/pdf/2012...%20Plywood.pdf
    Last edited by Richard Gonzalez; 06-09-2018 at 2:44 AM.
    Colorado Woodworkers Guild
    Colorado CNC User Group

  9. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Gonzalez View Post
    If you look at Onsrud’s equivalent 1/4 compression bit (60-100) they recommend a chip load of .015-.017 for cutting soft plywood. I think that this type of chip load is more realistic (you want chips, not dust. I typically run closer to 12000 rpm (my machine cannot go fast enough to utilize 24000 rpm), this would give speeds in the 340-400 ipm range. I do not know why Amana has such conservative chip loads.

    I would certainly try running at 12000 rpm at your desired speed around 120. Then try 150! You should get chips, you should find the chips are warm and the bit is not.

    Onsrud data: http://www.onsrud.com/files/pdf/2012...%20Plywood.pdf
    Richard thanks for the suggestion! The only reason I could think the two would be different would be flute design but hopefully the Amana numbers are not realistic and I can get more from the took I already have.

    The Onsrud 60-110 has a .561 uncut section so I'm looking at the 60-111 which has .175 uncut for 0.5" plywood. Will probably go ahead and get it to compare against the Amana. Do you see any issues cutting 0.5" plywood in a single pass or two passes with the 1/4 Onsrud?

  10. #25
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    Cleveland OH
    Posts
    190
    Try and test different speeds and RPM - All of the tool calculators out there are great starting points but not always realistic in every situation. Trying running your machine at 12 - 16,000 RPM and try a speed of 100 ipm. I would stick with 100 ipm and make sure your machine can handle that speed and movements. Start your RPM at 16K and keep dropping it - I wouldn't go below 10K. Go with a 1/4" compression bit - 3/8" is larger than you need and is harder on your machine. Run four test each at a different RPM and compare edge quality. If 16K RPM looks the same as 12K RPM than go with 12K.

    Not to move traffic from Sawmill but Axiom has a very active form with tons of users with your same machines. I cant give you a perfect starting point because we have two very different machines. We cut 10 - 15 pallets a month of 1/2" BB, I run my routers at 300 ipm, 16k RPM using Amana 1/4" Compression, We are focused on Tool life and Edge quality, My customers want perfect edges for Edge banding and finishing. We use 3/8" and 1/2" bits for cabinet parts and faster cutting but it depends on the job and the required vacuum.

    Another suggestion, If your trying to make a profit -

    Check your area for a production partner. We work with over a dozen companies, from little companies to billion dollars corporations. We have been contracted to create just about everything including Monograms . A 22" Tall monogram will take my machines around 2 - 3 minutes to cut and clean the edges. We wholesale these for around $6 finished - Im sure in your area there are several Large cnc shops. Just another option that moves you away from being a manufacturer and helps you create your brand. This would have been the same advise I wish I would have given myself 4 years before I started my journey clawing my way to the top.

    Hope this post was helpful
    3X Camfive 1200 48" x 24" 100watt Tube
    Zcorp 450 3d Printer
    Laguna Smartshop 2 - 4x8 ATC

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