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Thread: School me on airless sprayers..........

  1. #1
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    School me on airless sprayers..........

    I am thinking of switching to Baltic birch for most cabinet construction, getting away from pre-finished, and would like to know more about fine finish airlesses. Not looking to spend thousands, do have a good Graco dealer close by but that is not carved in stone.

    Give me you impressions, recommendations, and maybe a tip or two. I know nothing, so lets start there.

  2. #2
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    Buy a Graco with their best gun. The pump is not as important as the gun, unless you need to spray more than 3 gallons a minute. Some years ago, I bought one of their air assisted airless rigs. The air assist blows out the hard streams on the sides of the fan if you are using a low pressure. I bought several sizes of their fine finish tips when I bought that rig. It worked great.

    Soon after that, I needed to replace my 20some year old gun for the airless rig. I decided to get the best one that also took the Fine Finish tips. The first time I used the old pump with the new gun, I put the AAA rig up for sale, and it sold quickly. The Fine Finish tips, and gun that accepts them, lets you spray at a much lower pressure, which is really nice for work inside, and gives much more control. You still need to plan each stroke ahead though, and make sure you aren't going to stumble, or bump your elbow. Any hesitation results in lot more work to fix a run, or sag.

    Airless is FAST. You have to move, but it can do a great job. AAA is not as fast as regular airless, but will still make you never want to use an HVLP rig again.

    If you're only doing cabinets, and furniture, I'd suggest an AAA. If you're also painting houses, or anything larger than cabinets, get the airless.

    It's been some number of years since I've looked at any of the equipment, so what I've said here may have changed by now. Airless is much better now, and even less expensive, than it was 15 years ago. There should be plenty of youtube videos showing how to use all the variants.

  3. #3
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    I agree with Tom. My experience is similar. For what you will be doing, an air assisted airless will be ideal and Graco do good ones. If it's all gets too pricey, you could consider a diaphragm pump but start with air assisted airless. Cheers

  4. #4
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    This is why we need a pro corner. I posted it in General so a few pros would see it, the only people that would use such an animal, but now its lost in no mans land.

    Thanks Tom and Wayne for your observations. I have a friend that uses one exclusively, but he makes log furniture and only uses one finish. How hard are they to clean between finishes? I looked at the hand helds, but they look pretty clumsy to me.

    Thanks, Larry

  5. #5
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    Use water to push out waterbourne/ water based finishes, and mineral spirits, or your choice, for others. Clean the tip, and tip holder that screws off the gun by hand, and you're done. Amount of pushing fluid depends on the hose. Turn the tip around, and push what you have in the pump and hose into another container until you see the "pusher fluid", and keep that, then run the cleaner through the system until it runs clear. If I'm in a city, the cleaning water goes down a sink with running water, and at home, I spray it out on the grass by the shop, and it's gone with the next grass cutting.

    Water is a LOT easier than dealing with thinner, so I can't remember the last non-waterbased that I sprayed with the airless rig. I keep a cheap HVLP specifically for oil based primer.

    I keep a 1/4"x25' hose for inside work, and a couple of hundred feet (in three pieces that can be combined) of 3/8" for outside. The smaller, shorter hose makes for much quicker cleanup.

    If you are spraying water based over mulitple coats, or days, take the tip and end off, clean them between coats, and drop the gun in a bucket of water until the next session. Put a piece of Saran Wrap on top of the finish in the container you're sucking it out of. There is no air in the system, so that way, nothing sets up anywhere except maybe a little on the pickup tube.

    I put a drop of oil on the tip, and pump saver in the pump for long term storage. I think I bought the pump I'm using in the late '80's, but may have been the early '90's. You have to put pump oil in once in a while, but it's easy.

    The handhelds are more clumsy, and don't do as good of a job, without a lot of experience, as a real airless rig.

    If you will be spraying things other than cabinets, you will want several extension wands, that come in a bunch of different lengths, and go between the gun and the tip holder, so you can stand on the floor, and paint a tall ceiling, or paint a roof without bending over. For cabinets, spray them before you put the backs on. Overspray is not a problem, like with air rigs, but you do get some bounceback, depending on pressure.

    edited to add: The handheld ones are a lot more trouble to clean, or at least, mine is. Mine is Graco's first version of the battery powered sprayers. I haven't looked at the newer models, but I have to take mine completely apart, including the gasket that goes between the head, and the cup. It takes me longer to clean the unit, than to spray what I spray with it. I haven't used it in years.
    Last edited by Tom M King; 05-30-2018 at 6:50 PM.

  6. #6
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    Thanks for taking the time to write this Tom. I like to hear opinions/tips from people I know are the real deal and not corporate shills. So again, Thank you.

    Larry

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom M King View Post
    Buy a Graco with their best gun. The pump is not as important as the gun, unless you need to spray more than 3 gallons a minute. Some years ago, I bought one of their air assisted airless rigs. The air assist blows out the hard streams on the sides of the fan if you are using a low pressure. I bought several sizes of their fine finish tips when I bought that rig. It worked great.

    Soon after that, I needed to replace my 20some year old gun for the airless rig. I decided to get the best one that also took the Fine Finish tips. The first time I used the old pump with the new gun, I put the AAA rig up for sale, and it sold quickly. The Fine Finish tips, and gun that accepts them, lets you spray at a much lower pressure, which is really nice for work inside, and gives much more control. You still need to plan each stroke ahead though, and make sure you aren't going to stumble, or bump your elbow. Any hesitation results in lot more work to fix a run, or sag.

    Airless is FAST. You have to move, but it can do a great job. AAA is not as fast as regular airless, but will still make you never want to use an HVLP rig again.

    If you're only doing cabinets, and furniture, I'd suggest an AAA. If you're also painting houses, or anything larger than cabinets, get the airless.

    It's been some number of years since I've looked at any of the equipment, so what I've said here may have changed by now. Airless is much better now, and even less expensive, than it was 15 years ago. There should be plenty of youtube videos showing how to use all the variants.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom M King View Post
    Use water to push out waterbourne/ water based finishes, and mineral spirits, or your choice, for others. Clean the tip, and tip holder that screws off the gun by hand, and you're done. Amount of pushing fluid depends on the hose. Turn the tip around, and push what you have in the pump and hose into another container until you see the "pusher fluid", and keep that, then run the cleaner through the system until it runs clear. If I'm in a city, the cleaning water goes down a sink with running water, and at home, I spray it out on the grass by the shop, and it's gone with the next grass cutting.

    Water is a LOT easier than dealing with thinner, so I can't remember the last non-waterbased that I sprayed with the airless rig. I keep a cheap HVLP specifically for oil based primer.

    I keep a 1/4"x25' hose for inside work, and a couple of hundred feet (in three pieces that can be combined) of 3/8" for outside. The smaller, shorter hose makes for much quicker cleanup.

    If you are spraying water based over multiple coats, or days, take the tip and end off, clean them between coats, and drop the gun in a bucket of water until the next session. Put a piece of Saran Wrap on top of the finish in the container you're sucking it out of. There is no air in the system, so that way, nothing sets up anywhere except maybe a little on the pickup tube.

    I put a drop of oil on the tip, and pump saver in the pump for long term storage. I think I bought the pump I'm using in the late '80's, but may have been the early '90's. You have to put pump oil in once in a while, but it's easy.

    The handhelds are more clumsy, and don't do as good of a job, without a lot of experience, as a real airless rig.

    If you will be spraying things other than cabinets, you will want several extension wands, that come in a bunch of different lengths, and go between the gun and the tip holder, so you can stand on the floor, and paint a tall ceiling, or paint a roof without bending over. For cabinets, spray them before you put the backs on. Overspray is not a problem, like with air rigs, but you do get some bounceback, depending on pressure.

    edited to add: The handheld ones are a lot more trouble to clean, or at least, mine is. Mine is Graco's first version of the battery powered sprayers. I haven't looked at the newer models, but I have to take mine completely apart, including the gasket that goes between the head, and the cup. It takes me longer to clean the unit, than to spray what I spray with it. I haven't used it in years.

    Sheesh! What an outstanding reply - LOTS of detail. I've been curious about spraying so I read the thread, expecting short replies. Instead I find replies that I'm printing out to stick in my "finishing" folder.

    Thanks much, Tom. Your replies here are above and beyond, IMO. Your "tips" (the second reply") is superb. So thanks from a voyeur novice. I'd guess I will not get into spraying because I don't do enough, but you just made me more confident that I will have some real expert advice if I do.


    PS - I now need to better figure out the relationship between AAA, airless, and HVLP. "Novice," like I said.
    Doug, the "Wood Loon"
    Acton, MA

    72, slow road cyclist, woodworking dabbler, tool junkie , and
    bonsai enthusiast.
    Now, if I could just stay focused longer than a few weeks...

  8. #8
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    You don't need airless, or AAA for hobbyist work.

    Airless is just what the name says. The fiinish is pushed out by pressure, and is not really dependent on the viscosity of the finish. You just use a tip with a larger orifice, the thicker the finish/paint. You have to crank up the pressure until you get full atomazation of the whole fan. Too low of a pressure will give you hard streams on each side of the fan, which makes it impossible to not have raised lines (at least) in your application.

    Air Assisted Airless adds compressed air to the airless to blow out those hard edges, so you can spray at a lower pressure. It's easier to apply a thin finish with one of these. You can spray any finish with the airless that you can with the AAA, but the AAA is more forgiving of the human doing the spraying.

    HVLP is high volume low pressure. It uses air to get the finish to atomize as it comes out of the gun. This is very similar to the old type of spray painting that uses comressed air at higher pressure, but you get a lot less overspray in the air, as well as bounceback off the surface. HVLP is the most forgiving, since it is also the slowest of the three we're talking about. The more stages your air pump for the HVLP has (not too much different than a vacuum cleaner running in reverse) the thicker the finish you can use, as well as the better atomazation you get with a thinner finish.

    These are just simplified descriptions about how the different sprayers work. I'm sure there are many youtube videos that explain in more detail.

    One fact that is hard to get around, with any of these, is that the more expensive the rig, the easier it is to do good work. It's much easier to do a good job with a four stage HVLP, than with a 2 stage, regardless of what finish you're using. It's easy to go too cheap, and never be able to do any kind of pro level spraying.

  9. #9
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    Larry, I sprayed a room today with my airless rig-first time in several years, and was remembering you asking about it in this thread. I thought of a few other things while I was doing it, if you're interested. Did you buy a rig?

  10. #10
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    Tom's advice is spot on. I own a Graco 495 PC Pro airless and a 9.5 Turbine HVLP - all told I'm vest $2900 between the two and I bought the HVLP brand new at $500 off retail on eBay.

    If I had to do it all over again I would have invested in a portable AAA. The new Graco's can shoot in full airless mode. So you get 2 for 1.

    I shoot only WB products through my airless. If I had to shoot solvent on that level, I'd just buy a second rig as I wouldn't risk cross-contamination. I know guys that have 2 hoses for their rigs and just rinse the pumps so save money on rinsing X feet of hose.

    As Tom said, airless rigs are all about pressure and tips. Holy-moley are they fast. They lay the paint and lay it fast. Give me a 515 tip and you can't back roll fast enough to keep up with me on a wall. I've sprayed Benwood WB poly with a FF310 and FF210 tip with superb results. The pressure when spraying that is around 900psi. Spraying ADVANCE on cabinet doors, I'll use a FF310 or FF311 tip and my pressure is 1800-2000. When I painted my spray booth room I used a latex enamel and a 515, which took 2400psi!

    Like anything else, it's all about practice and learning your product.

    Spend thousands and be glad you did. Promise. My airless paid for itself in the first job. My 9.5 turbine paid for itself in 2 jobs.

    Graco's AAA will pay for itself in 2 medium sized jobs.
    -Lud

  11. #11
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    Justin, Have you tried the FFLP tips? This job was my first time trying them, and I think it's a good possibility that they make AAA not necessary any more. I owned a Graco AAA rig for a short time, but as soon as they started selling the FF tips for airless, I sold the AAA as fast as I could, and have never missed it. The LP tips are a whole other jump forward, maybe even more of one than the FF tips made.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom M King View Post
    Justin, Have you tried the FFLP tips? This job was my first time trying them, and I think it's a good possibility that they make AAA not necessary any more. I owned a Graco AAA rig for a short time, but as soon as they started selling the FF tips for airless, I sold the AAA as fast as I could, and have never missed it. The LP tips are a whole other jump forward, maybe even more of one than the FF tips made.
    Good to know! I haven't been keeping up with the tech advances. I'm building an entertainment add-on today that will be shot with ADVANCE using my airless. I'll order a tip (unless the .00001% chance my local store carries one).
    -Lud

  13. #13
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    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnCztEg4_XA

    Heck yeah! Can't wait to try it. Thanks again!
    -Lud

  14. #14
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    Chances are not likely that a local store would have the FFLP tips. The LP tips use WAY less pressure than the other ones, so there is almost no bounceback. Fan width, and orifice size are the same as the FF tips. I ordered mine off ebay. I ended up with a 310, and a 514 for that room, and sprayed the whole thing with SW Pro Classic. The 514 was the largest tip I could find in a FFLP. I felt like I was putting clearcoat on a car, as could put on several coats right on top of each other.

    They say the LP allows maybe half of what you used to use. I'm not sure about that. My pump is so old that it doesn't have a gauge. I ordered a Titan gauge, and put it on before I started. It has a shaded area for the Titan tips. I started with it in that range, and tested on the plastic masking the windows. I ended up with it a little over the Titan range, with a 1/4-25 foot hose, but the room was zipped up, and I was using supplied air, so I went right to spraying as soon as I got the fan right, so didn't notice what the pressure was exactly. It was WAY less than it used to be.

  15. #15
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    I had to buy 5 gallon of precat today and I checked, the only tip they carried was a FF 414. I ordered a FFLP 313 tip on Amazon. I have a spec home coming up that I'll need to shoot so I guess I should order a 515 also. A great resource for parts and info is portlandcompressor.com. I've purchased 95% of my spray equipment and supplies through them. Great customer service and highly knowledgeable.

    The thought of spraying a home's worth of cabinet doors without having to stop and load the siphon cup on my Graco 9.5 has me almost giddy. What a time saver without all the overspray (I hope)!
    -Lud

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