Two Years Later - Follow Up On Chinese Lasers

[Bill George]

The sad thing is, I just came here to asked technical question of what is possible to do on a laser engraver and got hooked by this tread. (Not a Chinese laser question but a actual technical question. I have a specific need for the laser and if it won't do it then that loses out on half the reason for even buying a laser.)

I suggest you use the Search function, surprising that a Lot of the same questions have been asked over and over again. All I know was 4 years ago I was going to build a laser, had a lot of the stuff already bought. Then I found this site after getting tired of the Cr@p over on xxx Zone, came here and got educated. Keith just posted a link where you can purchase a USB drive with more files than you could ever expect to find in one place.... all from SMC members. Try that on the "other" sites.

Chris what are the settings your using for the pop corn, will they work on a Chinese CO2 or will I need to purchase an Epilog?

[Scott Shepherd]

Sorry Rob, didn't mean to infer that you were saying anything, I was just making a statement. It's frustrating to see people defend how awesome Chinese lasers are and then go to the forums and see 1000's of posts about people not being able to figure something out on their Chinese lasers and asking for help.

For the record, since you mentioned, it, I'll be happy to share my story with Chinese lasers. We ordered a Chinese fiber laser years ago. It came in and it was wrong. Not what we ordered. Contacted the manufacturer and was told "Sorry, you should sell your machine and order another one and we'll make sure it's correct this time". Seriously? You sent me something that wasn't what I ordered and I'm supposed to eat it? Yup. No matter what, they refused to make it right. Didn't matter to them. Then, the source went bad. I was told that it was not covered by warranty. Then, I called the manufacturer of the source and they told me it was. The company I bought it from said it had a 1 year warranty on the source, but the manufacturer of the source told me all their sources have 2 years. When I pressed them on it and told them the factory said it was 2 years, then they admitted it was under warranty and they asked me to send it back at my cost ($450 in shipping one way). I did, and 3 months later, and another $450, I finally got my source back. Down for 3 months. Lost customers because of it.

I called them, I emailed them, I asked every few days for an update. They stopped responding to me at all. Now how's that for your amazing customer service? Just because I had a poor experience doesn't mean everyone else does as well, and just as someone that had a great experience can't claim that people like me exist. It's a roll of the dice. This machine was bought from one the largest, most popular companies over there. Not some hacked up 4th hand brand where they are piecing things together. But to act like all customer service over there is outstanding isn't accurate because it's not. I'm not the only one who's experienced it. There are many, many people who have experienced the same thing. We just don't come on forums and write reviews about it all. But we're out here, and it's more than 1, lots more than 1.

I don't give a rats butt what anyone buys. I hope all my competitors buy the worst machines on the planet. It'll make my life easier. Last thing I want to hear is my competitors buying the same machines we have. So rock on, but anything you want. It's not my money and it's not my business. I can only recount what works for our business, which I have said repeatedly, is probably a lot different than most people's on here that are thinking about a Chinese machine.

No worries, it's all good. Order 2, they are inexpensive

[Clark Pace]

So not posted in a while and its funny. The other forum i visit has the exact kinds of comments in a totally different industry not even related to lasers. There are always seem to be a few who are kind of jerks. They seem to like to argue. Always have to be right. Totally none productive. So glad to be back. NOT. Learn to be civil. Im out

[Clark Pace]

Sorry Rob, didn't mean to infer that you were saying anything, I was just making a statement. It's frustrating to see people defend how awesome Chinese lasers are and then go to the forums and see 1000's of posts about people not being able to figure something out on their Chinese lasers and asking for help.

For the record, since you mentioned, it, I'll be happy to share my story with Chinese lasers. We ordered a Chinese fiber laser years ago. It came in and it was wrong. Not what we ordered. Contacted the manufacturer and was told "Sorry, you should sell your machine and order another one and we'll make sure it's correct this time". Seriously? You sent me something that wasn't what I ordered and I'm supposed to eat it? Yup. No matter what, they refused to make it right. Didn't matter to them. Then, the source went bad. I was told that it was not covered by warranty. Then, I called the manufacturer of the source and they told me it was. The company I bought it from said it had a 1 year warranty on the source, but the manufacturer of the source told me all their sources have 2 years. When I pressed them on it and told them the factory said it was 2 years, then they admitted it was under warranty and they asked me to send it back at my cost ($450 in shipping one way). I did, and 3 months later, and another $450, I finally got my source back. Down for 3 months. Lost customers because of it.

I called them, I emailed them, I asked every few days for an update. They stopped responding to me at all. Now how's that for your amazing customer service? Just because I had a poor experience doesn't mean everyone else does as well, and just as someone that had a great experience can't claim that people like me exist. It's a roll of the dice. This machine was bought from one the largest, most popular companies over there. Not some hacked up 4th hand brand where they are piecing things together. But to act like all customer service over there is outstanding isn't accurate because it's not. I'm not the only one who's experienced it. There are many, many people who have experienced the same thing. We just don't come on forums and write reviews about it all. But we're out here, and it's more than 1, lots more than 1.

I don't give a rats butt what anyone buys. I hope all my competitors buy the worst machines on the planet. It'll make my life easier. Last thing I want to hear is my competitors buying the same machines we have. So rock on, but anything you want. It's not my money and it's not my business. I can only recount what works for our business, which I have said repeatedly, is probably a lot different than most people's on here that are thinking about a Chinese machine.

No worries, it's all good. Order 2, they are inexpensive

--------------------
P.S. You can find tons of products made in U.S.A. that don't work well and have bad service. China certainly does not a have a monopoly on that. I do prefer to buy local if possible. Or even better same State. But that is not always possible. And perhaps you have to start your business using your second choice machine (perhaps smaller, or non-local), and the move towards the machine you really want. Can't believe I responded again. But certain things to irk me.

Yes I had a Universal Laser, and now I have a China machine. Both have served me well.

[Kev Williams]

Let me assimilate this:
Adam: Bought a laser, had it 2 years, still works good.
When younger, wanted a fast car, settled for 'it'll do', worked well till I could get what I wanted later-
same scenario applies to laser engravers-
express some opinions on lasers available worldwide, makes suggestions based on experience-
slight inference made that some stories of bad Chinese lasers may emanate from members of premium laser organizations-
express a few more opinions on laser choices-
overall happy with laser and life in general.


Steve; reply to above: gives thanks for helpful review-
respectfully (<<) and logically rebuts 'shill theory' of premium laser organization personnel posting less than ethical information-
offers differing opinions as to the financial nature of the engraving business and cost of machinery-
offers differing opinions on laser choices...

Which is answered back, and IMO not respectfully whatsoever:
Clearly you can't read.

I may have a strange sense of humor but I'm still laughing...!

I'm also laughing at what followed, but I digress

And as to 'Made in USA' ...does anyone seriously believe that phrase is supposed to always mean 'Made ENTIRELY in the USA' --?
Some things are to be sure, but they're few and far between!
--Like my 1976 Made in Milwaukee Wisconsin Harley Davidson here!
myharley.jpg
-----oh wait---- sorry, the front suspension, Showa, the starter motor, Hitachi, both proudly shipped in from Japan...
(and that's just 2 I know about)

Pretty funny, but back to work for me! Gotta get my made all over planet earth machines busy!!

[Scott Shepherd]

--------------------
P.S. You can find tons of products made in U.S.A. that don't work well and have bad service. China certainly does not a have a monopoly on that. I do prefer to buy local if possible. Or even better same State. But that is not always possible. And perhaps you have to start your business using your second choice machine (perhaps smaller, or non-local), and the move towards the machine you really want. Can't believe I responded again. But certain things to irk me.

Yes I had a Universal Laser, and now I have a China machine. Both have served me well.

Completely agree with you Clark. However, when you buy from a US company (even if it's imported equipment from China), you have some recourse if things aren't right. With direct to China purchases, you have zero. They make you pay in full up front, so if you order a 48" x 48" CNC router and a 24" x 36" router shows up, then you'd stuck. Maybe you get lucky and they replace it. Maybe, like me, you don't, and they won't. Then what? There's no governing body to complain to. They make you wire the money. Once it's in their bank, trust me, you aren't getting a penny of it back.

I've said this about 1000 times on this forum and some (not you) insist on reading past it, but I've started a number of services on Chinese machines. We did that because the cost of entry into that area was high and we were unsure if it would pay off. Once it started to pay off, then we'd upgrade and sell the Chinese machine. We've done that 3-4 times now in various aspects of our business.

We didn't have a vinyl plotter in the beginning and we were subbing vinyl work out. The costs were running up and no one wanted to give us wholesale pricing or work with us. I'd never cut vinyl before, never even seen it done. We bought a Chinese plotter from a US based company to give it a try. It paid for itself in one job. We paid $600 for it, if I remember right. Then we upgraded to one we paid $2,000 for, and now we have one that was close to $10,000. So I completely get the fact that you have to start somewhere and I do believe Chinese equipment has it's place in the market, 100%.

Kev, thanks for that Made me laugh out loud too.

[John Lifer]

I'll make a few comments and then watch the rest of my ballgame. First, Scott, I think you were over the top with your fist post and then it's spiraled downhill. As a moderator, I'd have thought better. Nothing here says only professiols need post. Even if you have overlooked it, there are a lot of us Chinese laser owners here.

I've not made a living with my two, but I'm trying. And I'd have NEVER dropped the 40 or 50 k on US lasers. I've still got about 12k invested and that would have bought me a mini by epilog.... Whoopee. I've got zero borrowed and that is the point. Yep, I'll never get rich, but I won't lose my shirt either. And I see a LOT of folks elsewhere trying to unload their laser after they can't make the $500 or more lease payment. .

I peruse and post on occasion on the epilog fb group. There is not a day that goes by that a person or two are inquiring as to how they can fix their machine. Not a design issue, a machine issue. Have you cleaned the encoder strip after machine screwed up 3 cups.... US Machines aren't perfect, yep, they do engraving the Chinese machines can't do.... And I'd like to have one for those reasons. But my galvo beats the socks off their old fiber, and no difference in their new machine except it has more power..... (and it probably has a Chinese source in it.)

And Matt, really, calling for someone to leave.? I thought a bit better of you too....

Well, I guess I have stepped on some delicate toes too.


There are a lot of good people that have posted here, and I have you guys to thank for giving me enough information to help me make a decision about buying and using my lasers..... But I guess I know where at least two of you stand.
Oh well.

[John Lifer]

Oh Scott, I received over $400 CASH back from Ray Fine when they made an error on my shipping of my Chinese laser.... That is one reason I have pushed them in the past. They do seem to be an Honorable company...

[Scott Shepherd]

Sorry to hear you are reading my posts in that light John. For the life of me, I can't comprehend how I'm being biased when I have said, REPEATEDLY, that Chinese lasers have their place and I don't care what anyone buys.

I'm sick of saying that, only to be followed up with "We can't all afford a Western Machine". For the love of humanity, read my actual posts.

All I have done is said that there's more to consider than the price. Period. Full stop.

It's frustrating to agree with someone and then be called out for the opposite of what you said.

Moderator or no moderator, the fact remains that Chinese manufactures get FREE advertising and FREE support on this site. That's not open for debate. That's a fact. Ask Keith how many ads the Chinese Manufacturers have taken out? Advertising is what keeps this forum running so all that free support can happen. That, my friend, is a fact, not an opinion.

For the billionth time, let me clarify my position.

1) Not everyone can afford a Western Machine

2) Not all Chinese machines have problems

3) Not all work requires a Western Machine

4) If you have problems on a Chinese machine, you might or might not be on your own

5) If you have the budget and work for it, a Western Machine can be very profitable

If you read any of that as "Chinese laser bashing" then that's on you, not on me.

I pointed out multiple issues with the original post, specifically calling me out for things I never wrote, but I suppose I'm not suppose to correct the record when someone characterizes what I said inaccurately?

[Mike Null]

John

I've read this thread a couple of times and don't see anybody named Matt. If you happen to be referring to my comments then I suggest you read them again.

[Dave Sheldrake]

I have continued to read the boogeyman stories online about buying Chinese machines. Some, I suspect from people with a vested interest in supporting domestic suppliers like Trotec and others. Others who have posted who seem to have a predisposed 'domestic is better than imported' bias regardless.

I probably have more lasers than most folks here, Chinese and Western, Many / most of the bogeymen stories you hear about problems with direct imports and lack of service backing are true when dealing with Chinese machines. Would that stop me carrying on buying them? no, they suit what I use them for.

Domestic purchases, both Chinese made and Western made have a huge difference, legal protections of your consumer rights that you don't get on Imports.

The hard reality is, if a Chinese vendor decides they don't want to play then there is literally nothing you can do.

[Bert Kemp]

Scott/Steve you may not be bashing Chinese machines but you make it sound like no one can have a business and make money using Chinese machines.
BTW I'm mealting butter for the Popcorn with my Rabbit as we type
OOps sorry Mike meant to Qoute Steve

John

I've read this thread a couple of times and don't see anybody named Matt. If you happen to be referring to my comments then I suggest you read them again.

[Scott Shepherd]

Scott/Steve you may not be bashing Chinese machines but you make it sound like no one can have a business and make money using Chinese machines.
BTW I'm mealting butter for the Popcorn with my Rabbit as we type
OOps sorry Mike meant to Qoute Steve

That's on your Bert, not on me. But since you brought it up, let's chat about that. How many times have I said, even in this post, that if you were vector cutting it wasn't much different? Huh? How many times? So since it seems some people like to imply what I mean when I say things, why doesn't someone tell me what that means? When I say that they have their place and their application, what does that mean?

Search my posts. I've said it 100's of times. However, you didn't seem to call out the original poster for saying the following "I have continued to read the boogeyman stories online about buying Chinese machines. Some, I suspect from people with a vested interest in supporting domestic suppliers like Trotec and others.".

I've helped 100's and 100's of people on this forum. Chinese lasers and Western lasers. I've spent 1000's of hours of the last decade helping people with any laser, including you Bert. When a guy called with a new Chinese laser and he couldn't get it to work and showed up at my door with it, I opened the door, welcomed him in, and sent him out the door hours later running product on his machine. I've mentioned we own a Chinese laser. How the heck you all read all this "hate" into my posts is on you, not on me. But I'll be darned if I'm going to sit back and let people misrepresent my words or my actions over the last decade. I clearly stated my position a couple days ago a few posts up (#24), which said that a Chinese machine may be a good choice for some jobs. Then you come on here and tell me, once again, that my posts "sound like no one can have a business and make money using Chinese machines".

Unbelievable that the bias is actually so far the other way that so many read what they want to read instead of what's actually said.

[David Gray]

I agree with your post ive had my co2 for a little over 2 years and could not be happier with my purchase I am considering a larger chinese co2 sometime this year
I think to own a chinese laser you need to be reasonably technically proficient as they can be buggy at times . I have just purchased a chinese 60 watt fibre laser
once again could not be happier with my purchase .No way id ever be able to afford a trotech etc and even if i could i would still probably buy chinese as I just could not justify
the extra 30k plus , I have heard there support is second to none, be the right machine to buy if you were not solid with your hardware and software because of the support offered .
My machine has also stood the test of time and has put out some very impressive work . https://goo.gl/photos/tbh9aD18ePgZhcow8

[Mike Null]

David

What fiber machine and specs did you buy?