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Thread: Switching over

  1. #1

    Switching over

    I need an expert opinion. I make hand carved serving trays out of basswood and Eastern white pine. I use GF dye stains to color my trays. I then spray them with four coats of Deft
    (nitrocellulose) lacquer from an aerosol can. I then apply paste wax and hand rub it out using OOOO steel wool. I am pleased with my results. So.......my question is this: Should I continue using their aerosol cans or should I switch over to using a compressor with a HVLP spray gun?
    Would I get a better result? Would it be more cost effective? Would a have to get into thinning the lacquer before spraying? Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks!

  2. #2
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    Would you get better results? Not likely, but you probably would only need 2 coats. Would it be more cost effective? Definitely. Would you have to thin the lacquer before spraying? Depends upon what lacquer and spray gun you use. Personally, I don't spray NC lacquer because of the explosion hazard. There are plenty of WB products that look just as good as lacquer and just as durable.

    John

  3. #3
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    Steve, it will be better in every regard. Spray can lacquer is the most expensive way to buy it and the lacquer is lower quality. A spray gun is much less effort to use. You can do the same job in less coats. You can thin the lacquer to suit yourself if you want to. You will have to do a trial to see how much solvent to add but after that you will rarely have to change your procedure.

    Since you are already using nitro lacquer, it will be no more hazardous than what you are already doing. I mostly work with solvent borne products and have done all my life. My opinion differs from John's in that I have yet to find a water-borne product that performs as well as solvent borne coatings. Cheers

  4. #4
    John: What would you recommend for a water based topcoat?
    And what method of application?

  5. #5
    Thanks Wayne:
    I do like the results I get. But I'm open to other options.

  6. #6
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    General Finishes High Performance Poly sprays easily if you thin it 10% and looks great. It will be as durable as NC lacquer. If you want a little amber tint add a few drops of Transtint Honey Amber dye to it. If you want higher durability try GF's Enduro Clear Poly. Sprays beautifully w/o thinning.

    Wayne, I know you are down there on the bottom of the world, so maybe you can't get the same WB products available here?

    John

  7. #7
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    Steve- The smallish physical size of your projects, and in small volume, allows spray can Nitro finish.

    Give some idea of volume - Like 1 board a month, 100, or what?

    If it's a few boards a month, definitely NO question stay w the spray cans.

    If it's 20 a month, and you can shoot 10 or 20 at a time, get a Gun.

    If you move to larger size pieces, cabinets, full furniture pieces,...even if ONE a year, especially using fast drying nitro,in order to "keep a wet edge" you need higher output spray Gun.

    Another benefit a Gun will give is ability to add retarder.. but only needed IF you have been having blush problems.

    I spray old school NO cat Sherwin Williams nitro lacquer on full size furniture... will never change, VERY happy w it.

    Thank God I am not in CA.

    Marc
    I'm pretty new here, not as as experienced as most. Please don't hesitate to correct me

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by John TenEyck View Post
    General Finishes High Performance Poly sprays easily if you thin it 10% and looks great. It will be as durable as NC lacquer. If you want a little amber tint add a few drops of Transtint Honey Amber dye to it. If you want higher durability try GF's Enduro Clear Poly. Sprays beautifully w/o thinning.
    Those coatings don't burn in do they? The OP specifically said that he does hand-rubbed finishes, so that may be a dealbreaker due to the risk of witness lines if he rubs across a coating boundary.

    In addition to the finishes John lists you might try Target EM6000, which does burn in and is more amenable to hand-rubbing IMO.

    I personally don't think that waterborne's match the "depth" of NC lacquer, but the best ones are pretty close. In terms of surface gloss and durability they already match or exceed NC lacquer, which actually isn't a terribly robust finish.

  9. #9
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    In my case, my Nitro goes on Caskets, so I don't even bother with a Vinyl KCMA sealer, or any Cat'ing.



    Marc
    I'm pretty new here, not as as experienced as most. Please don't hesitate to correct me

  10. #10
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    John, most of the products talked about here are not on the shelf in Australia. There are plenty of water borne finishes available but I find the ones I have tried don't work with stains in a way that is acceptable. The cases where they do work are as stand-alone finishes. Gold Coast City Council chambers was clear finished. Various steel treetop walks I have done here in Australia used water-borne inorganic zinc. Correct me if I am wrong but it seems that the move to water borne finishes is driven by air quality concerns rather than by any advance in the quality of the finish that can be produced.

    The other consideration is durability. Here in Australia and especially Tasmania the amount of solar radiation reaching the ground is far greater than anywhere in the Northern hemisphere due to the much greater quantity of airborne particulate pollution in the north. If a product is not formulated with Australian conditions taken into account, it will fail and they regularly do. We are a small market so most sellers pass off lower quality product and hope we don't notice. It takes a bit of effort and expense to find the right stuff.

    My crew once painted half of a loading gantry on the docks in Melbourne and other contractors did the other half. A year later the customer was back claiming we had done it wrong. Turns out, we used the correct uv stable top coat. The other mob used a cheap one which went chalky. It took some work to explain that my half was good and the other mob had stuffed up. Both products complied on paper but only one had been tested in Australia. Sorry about the wordiness. Bored recovering from dental work... Cheers

  11. #11
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    Wayne - Interesting post.

    Yes, the water products are 95% driven by reducing VOC air standards, and 5% by those in some way personally "sensitive" or concerned (usually logically) about fire/ explosion etc.

    My rough guess estimate numbers.

    I spray Nitro heavily reduced in the driveway outside the shop overhead door.

    Not too often, but sometimes w nasty Retarder.

    I never even wear a respirator, cause honestly I always have a couple mph breeze, and almost always upwind.

    If I can't smell/ taste it, I'm fine.

    A few here will have major disagreement on my comment, but I'm fine.

    Course, I also have eaten blood rare hamburgers for 50 yrs w nooo problemo.

    Like noooo problem.

    But ONLY when ground "in house".

    I always prefer the nasty stuff it seems. Marc
    Last edited by Marc Jeske; 05-17-2018 at 7:01 PM.
    I'm pretty new here, not as as experienced as most. Please don't hesitate to correct me

  12. #12
    Marc:
    My volume is definitely low. I spray average one to two trays a week. I'm very happy with the results I get using aerosol nitro, I just didn't know if using HVLP would be more cost effective of if I could even better results.

  13. #13
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    Your piece is small, approx or under 1 x 2 foot I assume approx.

    Definitely stay w cans, source best price.

    Again, also, cans give a sufficiently wide pattern dispersal for you to keep a "Wet edge".

    Do NOT consider Gun until you either -

    Have a no other option than to add Retarder for blush problems...

    Increase your volume to like at LEAST 5-10 trays/week that you can shoot in same session..

    Or/ and.. start to do large pieces where you need to have all sides wet to flow out W/O DRY OVERSPRAY POWDER.

    The payback on a gun will not happen at your current volume for a helluva long time.

    With a small surface area as you have you will not benefit w the wider heavier depositing flow a gun will give.

    As you know, w FAST drying common nitro, you HAVE to lay a wet film across the whole "Side"

    Like, I spray Casket flat lids w battens on inside.

    It is a challenge.. to cover the SIDES of battens somewhat uniform w the flats of my casket lid undersides because it dries so fast to level flow out.

    Retarder helps me a little, but still a problem in warm/ Hot weather w the slapped on battens and needing to hit them w gun from TWO sides, and "Dry" NON "Wet edge" issues.

    Spray around my edges only leads to MORE coats than needed overall... in order to disguise the original edge "banding spray".

    The flat tops of the lids are total cake compared to the undersides w the battens.

    Stick w the cans for now, source for best price.

    Marc
    Last edited by Marc Jeske; 05-17-2018 at 9:20 PM.
    I'm pretty new here, not as as experienced as most. Please don't hesitate to correct me

  14. #14
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    At your current production rate, your ROI for Gun, regulator, water filter outer, etc... all assuming you have a I dunno 10 CFM comp MINIMUM MINIMUM for an HVLP gun...time will be years.

    So, Fuggedaboutit.

    Marc
    I'm pretty new here, not as as experienced as most. Please don't hesitate to correct me

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc Jeske View Post
    At your current production rate, your ROI for Gun, regulator, water filter outer, etc... all assuming you have a I dunno 10 CFM comp MINIMUM MINIMUM for an HVLP gun...time will be years.

    So, Fuggedaboutit.

    Marc
    For the scale of work he's doing there are 4-6 cfm "LVLP" guns that will work just fine. I think you're greatly exaggerating the cost and effort involved with the gun route, to be honest.

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