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Thread: Help with table design

  1. #1
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    Help with table design

    I am making a table out of Ribon Stripe Sapele, the dimension are 8ft long and 43 inches wide. It is all solid 8/4 lumber. I do not plan on making bread board ends and the design will pretty be the same as the image below. I have a few question.

    1) Does this design need breadboard ends?

    2) Base Construction, I was planning on making the joinery for the base with a Festool Domino and just making 90 degree butt joints, not like the mitered base in the picture. which way is the best wat to oriend the cube, should the vertical part support the table top directly, or should the horizontal potion lay on top of the vertical member.

    3) To affix the base to the table I am thinking to use 1/2 inch thread taps (wood Whisperer) and a nice grade 5 half inch bolt and washer, elongate the hole on the width to allow for movement. I would use maybe 5 bolts per base (10 total) to prevent against the cupping or bowing of the table top, and to give some stability when my kids try and push this table all over the place.

    Thanks so much for everyone's help, and any other thoughts and suggestion are greatly appreciated.




  2. #2
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    1) breadboard ends can help keep a table top flat, and it also hides end grain. On a top that thick I doubt there’s be much movement assuming the boards have be properly dried and acclimated. So no, I wouldn’t think you “need” breadboard ends - some don’t think they’re needed in any situation other than looks.

    2) as long as the butt joints are aligned and flush it shouldn’t matter which way you join it. I’d prefer to have the vertical boards full length from an aesthetic standpoint.

    3). I haven’t seen those thread taps before but they look like they’d work nicely. Doesn’t look they’re made any more?

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Day View Post
    1) breadboard ends can help keep a table top flat, and it also hides end grain. On a top that thick I doubt there’s be much movement assuming the boards have be properly dried and acclimated. So no, I wouldn’t think you “need” breadboard ends - some don’t think they’re needed in any situation other than looks.

    I got them from a pretty reputable lumberyard here in New York City, so I hope they will be good, I will wait a few weeks before making the top.

    2) as long as the butt joints are aligned and flush it shouldn’t matter which way you join it. I’d prefer to have the vertical boards full length from an aesthetic standpoint.

    Good point, I think it will look better that way

    3). I haven’t seen those thread taps before but they look like they’d work nicely. Doesn’t look they’re made any more?

    I don't know if they are available anymore, but I have a set that I haven't used, will likely make a few test pieces first

    Thanks so much for the help

  4. #4
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    That design needs a middle stretcher or cross bracing. To keep it from flopping over I don't believe the bolts will hold in the long run. That's a large top it will have a lot of leverage over the small connection point.
    Aj

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Hughes View Post
    That design needs a middle stretcher or cross bracing. To keep it from flopping over I don't believe the bolts will hold in the long run. That's a large top it will have a lot of leverage over the small connection point.

    Any specific suggestion to try and keep the overall aesthetic?

  6. #6
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    instead of a front-back stretcher connecting the legs, can you make the side-side connectot between the legs wide enough to prevent the flopping? Not sure on minimum width, but enough to get pairs of bolts at a reasonable spacing (front to back) across the width??

  7. #7
    you don't say how experienced you are, but if you got that top glued up with no open joints ... good job. Now that I have your attention ...I hate that 2 by 4 looking base resting flat on the floor. Might be acceptable several inches up from the
    floor, but I'm sure there are better options.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Dindner View Post
    Any specific suggestion to try and keep the overall aesthetic?
    I agree with Bill, I think you should revisit the base design. A sapele top of that size will weigh about 175 lb (assuming you end up with 1-3/4” thick material when completed).

  9. #9
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    Breadboard ends are not required. They are a style, not a structural element. Your top will stay straight provided you polish both sides and use dry timber.

    I would run the leg all the way to the floor and the cross rails between.

    Overall the design needs more work to resist end to end movement. It's a bit difficult to do this while keeping the look you want. You need to increase the contact area between the top and the base. Cheers

  10. #10
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    That is a thick top, a significant volume of wood. If seeking the appearance alone, a veneer on torsion box could reduce weight and stabilize the structure. Wouldn't help much with the leg attachment except that you could now engineer the attachment points. Slight twist on the aesthetics, but certainly an alternative with solid wood, might be through tenons. There are a few examples by Dan McGrew on his web-site (and I'm sure many by others as well). They appear reasonably robust.

    DanMcGrew.jpg
    "the mechanic that would perfect his work must first sharpen his tools.” Confucius

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Dindner View Post
    I am making a table out of Ribon Stripe Sapele, the dimension are 8ft long and 43 inches wide. It is all solid 8/4 lumber. I do not plan on making bread board ends and the design will pretty be the same as the image below. I have a few question.

    1) Does this design need breadboard ends?

    No, not unless you want to incorporate them. If you're worried about keeping the ends flat, incorporate an internal truss rod

    2) Base Construction, I was planning on making the joinery for the base with a Festool Domino and just making 90 degree butt joints, not like the mitered base in the picture. which way is the best wat to oriend the cube, should the vertical part support the table top directly, or should the horizontal potion lay on top of the vertical member.
    Vertical posts to the floor would be my choice. I also don;t like that horizontal member on the floor, but that's just me
    A 90 degree joint only held by floating tenons in not a very strong joint. I would re-think the domino only, mechanical connection.

    3) To affix the base to the table I am thinking to use 1/2 inch thread taps (wood Whisperer) and a nice grade 5 half inch bolt and washer, elongate the hole on the width to allow for movement. I would use maybe 5 bolts per base (10 total) to prevent against the cupping or bowing of the table top, and to give some stability when my kids try and push this table all over the place.

    It should work. large table anchors would work also, but the premise is the same. I don't know how dense Sapele is, but you may want to considering epoxying the tapped anchors in place. I know this may sound odd, but the "wood anchors" I've seen over the past decade have all been pretty junky. You might want to consider an expanding concrete anchor, epoxied in place, if you can find one short enough.

    Thanks so much for everyone's help, and any other thoughts and suggestion are greatly appreciated.

    I would seriously heed Andrew's suggestion for a middle stretcher. If that table were just a show piece, and would be left in one place, that design is good. Moving it about, and having kids in the equation, to me calls for a little more robust design.
    I like the concept. it should be a very handsome piece when you get done.
    "The first thing you need to know, will likely be the last thing you learn." (Unknown)

  12. #12
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    Looks like the 2x top is actually 2-1xs glued together. I wonder if there is some sort of hardware in the sandwich to make this work without a stretcher?

  13. #13
    Hi Bill,

    For a 43" wide top, you will need to take wood movement into consideration, regardless of the species, so the elongated holes are a good ideal. You probably don't need grade 5 bolts, the joint between the anchor and the wood will fail before a plain grade bolt will fail. For the amount of work that the inserts are, lag screws would probably work just as well, perhaps better even. That top thickness can pull against the fasteners hard, so the top to fastener joint strength is important.

    One thing to consider with the base as shown, is that if the bottom board is resting on the floor, the table is going to have a tendency to rock, especially on carpet. Bringing up that board even an inch will make it much more stable. If you bring it up a couple more inches, it would look about right for a bottom stretcher, which that design would benefit from, as others have said. I don't have any experience with dominoes, but whatever the joint between the pieces of the leg frame, it needs to be quite stout. Doing a 90 degree joint is a lot safer and simpler than a miter as it gives you better options (domino, dowel, mortice and tenon, screws) without finicking with the 45 angle.

  14. #14
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    I built a table like that several years ago. Mine was walnut. The top was two book matched slabs two inches thick, and the overall length was nine feet. The “legs” were structures very much like yours, fastened with tapped holes in the top.

    5/8” bolts tapped an inch and a half into hardwood are a very secure connection. You can wrench on them with a big socket wrench, and not strip the wood threads out. They’re not going anywhere in service.

    Don’t worry about the table rocking on a crossbar at floor level. It is going to weigh three hundred pounds or more. It won’t move.

    One consideration with base is that it would be nice to set it in place, and then put the top on it. If the legs are not connected, assembly is a challenge. DAMHIKT. The legs don’t need to be connected for strength— that top is a huge structural member — but just for convenience.

  15. #15
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    Here's a link to the thread I started about that walnut table. Look at post #3 for pics of the table.
    https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread....-router-bridge

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