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Thread: Blue Stain in Southern Yellow Pine: Facts and Observations

  1. #1
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    Blue Stain in Southern Yellow Pine: Facts and Observations

    As some of you may have seen I got started on a workbench about a month ago using some SYP that I found at a local sawmill. Since the initiation of this project I've been kind of fascinated with SYP--its properties, its economic importance, etc. Here in Kansas I never saw SYP lumber apart from the pressure-treated stuff. Framing lumber is almost all Hem-Fir or Douglas Fir so SYP is virtually an exotic to me. How a sawmill here in town got ahold of a yellow pine tree I don't know. But Mr. Sawmill claims that this tree was sawed a decade ago and has been sitting ever since.
    IMG_5367.jpg
    A lot of the sapwood has blue stain in it. On some boards the stain goes all the way through. I read a little bit about it and saw a lot of conflicting information ranging from "don't use anything that is stained because it is weakened and unsuitable" to "it makes zero difference in mechanical properties and is actually desirable because it looks pretty." Personally I think it looks kinda cool but structural defects are not worth pretty colors so I did a little bit more digging. I found more than a few research papers on the subject going back over 100 years. Apparently the economic cost of blue stain can be significant for a lumber company so the subject gets a some attention. As it turns out there are a number of fungus and mold species that result in staining, and you cannot always determine the type of fungus/mold by color. That said, the blue stain common in pine is generally a fungus. Some studies concluded that the fungus can decrease the strength or toughness (shock resistance) of the wood and some studies concluded no change in mechanical properties.

    The most informative study I found gave a little clarity to some of the inconsistent results I'd seen before. But, like so many helpful studies, it ultimately muddied the water by raising new issues. It was done by Dale Chapman and Theodore Scheffer, if anyone is actually interested in reading a scientific article about fungus and wood. Anyhow, they actually tested multiple species of fungus and multiple species of pine. Awesome. What they found is that different species of fungus were detrimental in different ways and to different extents. Sigh. It gets messy but these are the points that may be useful to the woodworker:

    • compression, bending strength, hardness, and specific gravity were not really affected that much
    • the only property that was seriously affected was toughness AKA shock resistance. In their tests toughness was reduced by between 9 and 75%. However, in the conclusion they state that in naturally infected wood that we would encounter they estimate the potential loss in toughness to be 15-30% at most. The tests involved heating that they think caused significant degradation on its own.
    • determining the species of fungus that caused the stain...no easy way to do it so don't even worry about it.
    • the intensity of the color did not correlate to the extent of degradation. In fact, the fungi that caused the darkest stains affected the wood the least apparently.
    • the extent of the staining (i.e. the amount of discolored wood) is a decent indicator of the magnitude of the infection and thus may have value as a means of estimating strength losses


    So, at the end of the day, blue stain is probably not worth getting too worked up about. If the stain is extensive, or strength and toughness are critically important to the thing you're building then it is probably worth trying to avoid but I wouldn't go rejecting a stained piece of pine that is otherwise ideal for most projects. I suppose I'll find out a little more as I spend more time working with the pine I have but based on the research and my experience thus far I am betting that the blue-stained stuff is just fine structurally-speaking. SYP seems to be tough enough that even with a reduction of 15-30% it'll probably be fine for most applications.

    On related note, I have noticed that some of the blue-stained sections on the pine that I have appear to be more porous. Almost like they have little micro-checks sprinkled around. Another brief study said that blue-stained pine caused by beetles (the beetles carry the fungus--they do not cause the stain themselves) becomes more permeable to liquid. Whether or not this is caused by the fungus or the beetles I did not figure out. I suppose I'll find out when I get further along on my workbench. My prediction is that the stained wood will be a little bit more permeable and will suck up more finish but I base that prediction only on handling and looking at the pine that I have.

    I apologize if this got a little too nerdy and sciencey for some folks but hopefully someone will find it useful or at least interesting as I did. After seeing how detailed some people here get over steel composition and sharpening media I figure I have a decent shot of hooking at least a few folks!

  2. #2
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    Matthew,

    No need to worry about being nerdy. This is the kind of information I am interested in, and my guess is that a lot of other Neanders are also, useful stuff. The properties of wood are very pertinent to Neander woodworks.

    Oh, and yes I am pretty darned nerdy, and some of us nerds like this kind of stuff.

    Thanks and regards,

    Stew
    Last edited by Stew Denton; 05-10-2018 at 2:36 AM.

  3. #3
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    The stains on pine have often piqued my curiosity. Never enough to dig into it. Thanks for doing the digging Matthew.

    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  4. #4
    Thank you!
    Fred
    "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."

    “If you want to know what a man's like, take a good look at how he treats his inferiors, not his equals.”

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Koepke View Post
    The stains on pine have often piqued my curiosity. Never enough to dig into it. Thanks for doing the digging Matthew.

    jtk
    It's an interesting subject because the view on it seems to be changing. Lumber companies were initially worried about it and facilitated a lot of the research because to them stain simply meant lower yield. But nowadays companies like Sustainable Lumber Co. in Missoula, MT are marketing beetle-killed pine with blue stain as a premium product. There's a video on their website with Jack Johnson (singer/songwriter) showing off a ukelele made out of blue-stained pine along with a gallery of photos featuring blue-stained pine flooring, interior trim, furniture, etc. To their credit it is beautiful stuff and they do a great job of marketing it. It would have been pretty cool to have been one of the people who first started buying and marketing it, finding value in a resource that the lumber industry generally saw as useless.

    Hell, I saw one lumber yard/sawmill in Colorado that was advertising blue-stained pine slabs for $4-12 per board foot.
    Last edited by Matthew Hutchinson477; 05-10-2018 at 9:22 AM.

  6. #6
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    I'm building my current project out of SYP and it incorporates sections of a live slab. The rest of the lumber is clean, straight and fungus free, but that slab has a bit of the blue stain and some bug holes. It looks interesting but it has noticeably different working properties. Mainly it seems a bit mushy and crumbly compared to the normal boards. It is more difficult to mortise cleanly, and does not take as nice of a finish off of the plane. It seems to have more pores and takes more finish to fill. Based on this experience it wouldn't surprise me if blue-stained pine were a little weaker in a strength test, because it is already beginning to rot. However I don't think the reduced strength/integrity is enough to avoid using it in furniture if you like the look.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Hazelwood View Post
    I'm building my current project out of SYP and it incorporates sections of a live slab. The rest of the lumber is clean, straight and fungus free, but that slab has a bit of the blue stain and some bug holes. It looks interesting but it has noticeably different working properties. Mainly it seems a bit mushy and crumbly compared to the normal boards. It is more difficult to mortise cleanly, and does not take as nice of a finish off of the plane. It seems to have more pores and takes more finish to fill. Based on this experience it wouldn't surprise me if blue-stained pine were a little weaker in a strength test, because it is already beginning to rot. However I don't think the reduced strength/integrity is enough to avoid using it in furniture if you like the look.
    If it has bug holes then that probably means the pine was infested with beetles and the fungus was introduced by them, thus it is probably a different species of fungus than what causes blue stain in trees that weren't attacked by beetles. Based on that it has probably been affected in different ways than the pine I have, though your description sounds similar to what I have experienced.

    On my pine the blue-stained sections feel a little more brittle when I plane them. In addition to crumbly shavings I noticed that I have to push the plane pretty hard sometimes, almost like I'm planing against the grain. Have you experienced that at all?

    On another note, that I think I forgot to mention in the original post, blue stain does make the wood more susceptible to other types of rot that are more likely to cause damage so word on the street is you should be extra-careful with blue-stained stuff and make sure it isn't further exposed to too much moisture.

  8. #8
    Addenda to Robert's info. In northern New England most white pine is harvested in the winter because it gives the logging operation more time to get the logs to the mills so they can saw it immediately without having to worry about blue stain. Blue stain occurs here only after the tree is cut. This approach was taken to minimize the economic loss of having to discount selling prices at every level from logger to retail purchaser.
    Dave Anderson

    Chester, NH

  9. #9
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    One thing my family has done for income, for generations, is to raise Yellow Pine trees. Some people think that the blue stain comes from Pine Beetles, but I can tell you for a fact that if you simply leave a cut log on the ground too long, before it's taken to the mill, it will get blue stain in the log.

    I just stay away from it because I'm allergic to mold, and I can tell pretty fast that I don't want to be breathing sawdust from it.

  10. #10
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    Very interesting backstory-thanks. We used to sell it as "Beetle-Killed" pine when I worked in a lumber yard many years ago. It was Ponderosa pine or Lodgepole pine though, not SYP. Sold as a "premium" product. I've also heard it called denim or blue jean pine.
    Happy and Safe Turning, Don


    Woodturners make the world go ROUND!

  11. #11
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    I think it sounds more interesting to be killed by an insect, rather than just simply the first stages of starting to rot. Unfortunately, it's not as nice as "spalted" Maple.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Don Orr View Post
    Very interesting backstory-thanks. We used to sell it as "Beetle-Killed" pine when I worked in a lumber yard many years ago. It was Ponderosa pine or Lodgepole pine though, not SYP. Sold as a "premium" product. I've also heard it called denim or blue jean pine.
    true. it is a huge problem for the forests here in Colorado. but it is pretty. i have done a buch of projects using the lumber. I have found that it varies a lot, both in color and structure, but they do not seem to correlate. most of it is ponderosa pine and some in lodgepole. I am not sure how or if you can tell the difference off hand. It is very trendy here, and very sustainable as most of it is cut dead from the pine bark beetle. It is also quite inexpensive around here.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom M King View Post
    I think it sounds more interesting to be killed by an insect, rather than just simply the first stages of starting to rot. Unfortunately, it's not as nice as "spalted" Maple.
    I also think the insect factor is a big part of marketing something like this. With the beetle-killed wood companies are presumably taking something that would otherwise be worthless and giving it a new life. It fits into the sustainable consumption idea very well. On the other hand, trees that weren't killed by beetles and just got infected with fungus on their own were just not harvested and dried meticulously. Though, the average consumer probably doesn't realize that.

    Most of the wood I've seen being sold as a premium product is being advertised as beetle-killed.

  14. #14
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    Doesn't look like blue stain to me. Looks like oak was stacked on it for a while and it got wet. Wet dried wet dried wet dried can explain the micro checks too.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Hazelwood View Post
    I'm building my current project out of SYP and it incorporates sections of a live slab. The rest of the lumber is clean, straight and fungus free, but that slab has a bit of the blue stain and some bug holes. It looks interesting but it has noticeably different working properties. Mainly it seems a bit mushy and crumbly compared to the normal boards. It is more difficult to mortise cleanly, and does not take as nice of a finish off of the plane. It seems to have more pores and takes more finish to fill. Based on this experience it wouldn't surprise me if blue-stained pine were a little weaker in a strength test, because it is already beginning to rot. However I don't think the reduced strength/integrity is enough to avoid using it in furniture if you like the look.
    Robert,
    Just out of curiosity, do the shavings you get look anything like this?
    3F76A0BF-1C9A-4291-A3EC-9DFAC2DFCB12.jpg
    This came from the section of the board with the darkest/deepest stain, and if you look closely you can see all the little holes or pores throughout.

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