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Thread: Some saw accident numbers

  1. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Rod Sheridan View Post
    Yes, more riders with helmets have longer hospital stays, as a former riding instructor I know why, they survive the initial collision.

    Similarly we know from industrial accidents that lack of guards is the major factor in entanglement incidents.

    Note, not accidents as I have only seen one industrial accident in 40 years, however I have been involved in the investigation of many incidents.

    Regards, Rod.
    Entanglement as in getting clothing and other personally worn items sucked into a machine? That fear is why I HATE working in long sleeves. If I have to when it's cold, it's only a long-sleeve t-shirt with a tight cuff.

  2. #17
    Hey, I didn't mean to cause anyone grief. Just thought those numbers were interesting - if somebody doesn't think its interesting, don't they just move on, like with all other threads?

  3. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Mikail Khan View Post
    Safety switch may be a large paddle type switch you can bump off.

    MK
    I think that's what they were talking about. Don't think SS was much of a category in 2007, was it?

  4. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Liming View Post
    Hey, I didn't mean to cause anyone grief. Just thought those numbers were interesting - if somebody doesn't think its interesting, don't they just move on, like with all other threads?
    I'm not sure why you say that? We seem to be having a good discussion based on what you said. I not only found it very interesting and useful here, I posted on another forum regarding a different but also interesting view of stats.

  5. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Carlos Alvarez View Post
    I'm not sure why you say that? We seem to be having a good discussion based on what you said. I not only found it very interesting and useful here, I posted on another forum regarding a different but also interesting view of stats.
    Just responding to Matt who thought the thread would get shut down.

  6. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Liming View Post
    Just responding to Matt who thought the thread would get shut down.
    Yeah, I didn't understand that post, so I ignored it...

  7. #22
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    Gary, I thought the breakdown of the stats was interesting, too. Thanks for posting.

    Apparently, when safety comes up here there are always those who tie it to SawStop, then all hell breaks loose and the thread gets shut down. Matt was just predicting the lifespan of this one.

  8. #23
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    I appreciate the post. It makes good reading. Following that, I work for a company that is heavily dependent on a good safety culture. We have meetings every day, and full blown sit-downs every Friday. A big thing here is the whole "take safety home" premise. I can honestly say that I have taken it to heart. I don't like getting injured in the shop at work, or at home. As a hobby woodworker, I've learned a few things in my home shop. Most notably, make sure your outfeed from your table saw is free of clutter/debris/whatever. I made the mistake one time, and got a 2' wide piece of plywood straight to the ole twig and berries. Not fun at all. Contributing factors are that my old saw does not have any guards (kickback/riving knife), and crap on the outfeed table. I've since made sure the table is clear before making any rip cuts.

  9. #24
    Nothing like getting to 3/4 of your cut and deciding:

    Do you push hard, knock everything off the table, and possibly precipitate a kick?

    Stop, hit the off button, and leave awful marks on the wood?

    Try to back out without getting a kick?

    Yell "mommy" and hope she's listening?

  10. #25
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    Injuries with the motor off are likely those that happen while the blade is spinning down. I understood that the mechanical brake on my jointer/planer is for that safety reason.
    Bumbling forward into the unknown.

  11. #26
    Right. This "Safety switch" has nothing specific to do with Saw Stop - it's simply referring to an E-stop push-button or paddle switch of some sort....

    How many old tools and machines have I seen which were widow makers... An itty bitty off switch that was made to stay turned on if bumped....

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carlos Alvarez View Post

    I have a pretty firm belief that poorly-tuned saws cause most accidents. Ever since going to a very obsessive tuning process, I have had zero incidents or even near-incidents. Absolutely no drama. But nobody is able to track well-tuned saws versus maladjusted ones.
    I don't necessarily agree that poorly tuned saws cause most accidents, but it is certainly a contributing factor. This is especially true with radial arm saws where the overall quality of the saw also comes into play. Fine tuning a saw doesn't do much good if it won't stay in alignment.

  13. #28
    I read the report. Since it is written in the style of an academic paper (although it is not as it is not peer reviewed), let me review it as such.

    Strengths
    - They called the individuals who were noted by the ED physician to have suffered an injury from a saw and asked them a detailed battery of questions rather than relying on a chart review. This is a strength because the level of detail they asked would never be put in a chart note by an ED physician as you would have to have an ED physician who is an expert woodworker (to even know to ask these questions) and most of they information they sought would have been not required to properly treat the injured patient and thus a waste of time, money, and "chart bloat" if the ED physician did try to collect it and document it.
    - They noted that different types of saws exist and different injury mechanisms exist rather than just counting "number of saw injuries."
    - The report indicated those that wrote it had at least modest knowledge of the operations undertaken on saws and the different types of tablesaws that exist.

    Weaknessess
    - The survey relied upon the ED physician to add in an optional diagnosis code to specify mechanism of injury in addition to the injury diagnosis code itself. Adding in a mechanism code is often not required and going through the extra effort to add in extra codes when not required is often not done as it wastes time and does not affect patient care or reimbursement. Thus they likely missed a large number of saw-related injuries because they were simply coded as the injury type. There's no way the CPSC actually read millions of charts with injuries that could possibly be caused by saws to see if there was any mention of a saw as the cause of the injury.
    - Even if the ED physician did go through the trouble of adding in the mechanism code, they are not specific. The best they could do in 2007-2008 with ICD-9 was to differentiate between powered hand tools (E920.1), "other" hand tools (E920.4), and "other specified cutting and piercing instruments and objects" (E920.8). All of the stationary saws would have been coded E920.8, which would have included a bunch of other equipment from an ear piercing gun to a die cutter to a drill press. ICD-10 is slightly better as it can differentiate between powered vs. nonpowered woodworking and forming machines (and nonwoodworking machines) but in many places mechanism codes are still not required.
    - The response rate was extremely low at about 5% of the total number of injuries identified. Such a low response rate significantly risks the surveyed sample not being a representative sample of those injured.

    My personal experiences in working in healthcare are pretty similar to the CPSC study. Circular bladed saw injuries are typically a man right around Medicare age ripping on a tablesaw with no guard in his own shop, and he touches the blade with the leading (index) or trailing (pinky) finger feeding stock by hand. Kickback is uncommon but often results in blunt-force injuries to the chest wall. Chainsaws cut a lot of people's thighs or lower legs, and a surprising number of people "joint" the end of their right ring finger and pinky in a jointer, but I saw a lot of the latter primarily as I worked in an area with a large employer in the area whose wood products factory used a large number of jointers. Women rarely come in with saw injuries and younger men with saw injuries are nearly always construction workers injured on the job. Tox screens are positive frequently, but surprisingly few are drunk, and the higher the scumbag ratio (number of tattoos / number of natural teeth), the higher the likelihood of a dirty tox screen, with an infinite ratio nearly always being dirty for something (usually weed plus the nationwide "epidemic" drug du jour.) Many construction workers injured by saws are also not on worker's comp as they were working illegally under the table. Again the higher the scumbag ratio or if they are on Medicaid, the higher the probability of working under the table.

  14. #29
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    The observation that I see from the original post is how many poor practices were combined in each injury. No riving knife,no push stick,no guard and 85% of incidents happen while ripping. It appears to me that most users would be far safer with a proper push stick,guard installed and riving knife.I was very fortunate to have an extremely good shop teacher that ingrained good technique and form and absolutely insisted on safe practices. These things were drilled into us, a practice I now pass on to my employees and son.Mike.

  15. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by John Redford View Post
    I would be most concerned with the 5.5% who were injured without the saw running.
    You laugh, I cut the crap outta my finger a few months ago waxing a saw top. I caught the dado head just right and ripped my stupid finger wide open.

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