Contributor
I got hurt on a tablesaw after it was turned off and spinning down. An older unisaw where the switch is on the cabinet and you have to reach down under the table. After finishing a cut, with push stick, condentration, and care, I leaned down and turned it off, and the left hand drifted too close when standing back up. The blade was almost stopped, but it only takes a touch.
I still use the saw, but the shutoff is now a pair of paddles that require neither a lean nor a look.
Terry T.
Contributor
I don't think the numbers seem all that incredible. After 20 years as a shop professional, I wouldn't doubt it at all. Older guys in the shop without a missing or shortened digit or two are about as rare as Philadelphia Super Bowls.Originally Posted by Steve Rozmiarek
Member
I put the overhead kit on my Unisaw and feel SO much better having the switch high and available. I couple times I've had something get sketchy and I can quickly hit it while not moving the wood that's already in the cut.
Member
Studies of causes of injuries are low quality from an academic sense as they deal with surveillance data of injuries after they occur. Essentially all are retrospective observational trials- "we looked back and saw if something happened." That is one step above the bottom rung of quality, case reports (anecdotal data.) Retrospective studies depend on injuries being reported to the surveillance system used accurately 100% of the time. That absolutely does not happen due to some individuals never seeking medical attention for non-fatal injuries so they never get counted. Deaths absolutely require reporting to a centralized state database as to a detailed cause of death, so as long as the medical examiner doesn't biff the documentation (unlikely in cases of saw injuries due to their obviousness) those should be accurately reported and available. But non-fatal injuries that do present to medical attention do not all get counted. Nearly all studies use payer claims data looking for injury mechanism codes as it is trivial to data mine that information from a payer database but practically impossible to read every medical chart from every physician in an area to see if any potentially saw-related injuries were missed. And even then, some physicians and midlevels have poor quality documentation and will just state the patient has such and such injury and make no note or mechanism diagnosis code as to the cause so even reading every single chart note won't pick things up.
Firearms are in a special category as at least some states (and probably most if not all of them) have laws that all firearms-related injuries that present to medical attention legally require notification of law enforcement even if the injuries did not result from criminal activity. Criminal activity with any weapon resulting in injury must always be reported and thus is tabulated.
The take-away is that there are more tablesaw injuries occurring than the studies show as they can be minor and do not present to medical attention, and even those that do present do not have to be reported to the authorities making the statistics. Firearms injuries are likely more accurate as they are mandatory to report in at least some (and likely most if not all) areas and injuries from firearms are usually severe and must present to medical attention. I suppose somebody could pinch their finger inserting a magazine or get their finger pinched in a firearm action, but that is not going to be a "near miss" kind of injury that could possibly portend a future serious injury, such as a person who just grazes their finger on a tablesaw blade and uses a Band-Aid.
Firearms injury and death statistics absolutely include all injuries and deaths regardless of intent, that is per regulations. The feds do publish a breakdown of the numbers though. The majority are in fact suicides, followed by homicides, most of which are criminals shooting other known criminals regarding criminal activity. Most "accidents" reported involve a child that encounters an illegally stored unlocked, loaded firearm and shoots themselves or another child. There are relatively few firearms injuries involving the lawful use of a firearm and most of those are an innocent person shooting a criminal. "Accidents" involving people involved in lawful use of a firearm resulting in the injury of themselves or others are exceedingly rare and in my state of 6 million with millions of firearms, happens about 5-10 times per year. I know this because the government prints each case of these in the hunting regulations booklet every year as a reminder for hunters and shooters. Essentially all of these cases involve somebody being careless as catastrophic rupture of a firearm when using proper ammunition would be about the only true "accidental" cause of injury or death from using a firearm. That's incredibly rare as firearms are built with a significant margin of safety against that happening (proof testing.)
The amount of time spent around a potential cause of injury absolutely impacts the likelihood of injury as injury risks are rates, injuries per unit time. People spend a relatively small amount of time actually shooting firearms. A typical deer hunter may shoot their rifle an hour per year, if that. An avid recreational shooter may shoot for a few hours per month. A competitive shooter may shoot for a few hours per week. A guy working in a furniture plant as the tablesaw operator will spend a few hours at the saw between starting work and his first bathroom break on Monday morning.
Guest
Try out a garand.... I thought I was going to lose my thumb.
Contributor
I used one a fair amount. You get good at it eventually. It's a quick poke with your thumb and then get your thumb out of the receiver as the bolt comes forward. That was a lot of years ago.Try out a garand.... I thought I was going to lose my thumb.
Mike
[That's to close the bolt with the rifle empty. You'd have to do that at the end of a rifle inspection (when in ranks). To load it, you push a clip down from the top. It would have been better to have been designed to use a magazine, like the M14, instead of a clip.]
Last edited by Mike Henderson; 04-27-2018 at 11:10 PM.
Go into the world and do well. But more importantly, go into the world and do good.
Contributor
I think the statistics have limited value. While a few ER Dr's might go into great detail most aren't going to. A saw is a saw is a saw. So whether it's a hand held saw, a sawzall, jigsaw, band saw, or saw mill they likely get grouped together. Some people and power tools shouldn't be mixed. But they are and that's why we have these statistics. Some injuries may be kickback related but they are still lumped together. One of these days when I get in the new shop I will probably end up with a SS even though I despise what they tried to accomplish. But I will have grandchildren popping in and out and I am not going to chance having one of them injured when the technology is available to prevent it. Yes proper PPE is needed to prevent other injuries. Safety glasses, goggles, or face shields and hearing protection. Proper clothing and shoes and gloves. The statistics are good for discussion but they create many questions.
Member
The one and only time I ever was injured from a firearm was getting bitten by a scope on a 12 gauge rifled barrel without iron sights slug gun. This was back in the days when rifled slug guns were still pretty new. The early "rifled slug gun" rounds were either 1 ounce .50 caliber sabots or even heavier attached-wad slugs, nearly all 3" magnums as they had to outperform the standard 2 3/4 oz 1 oz rifled slugs shot out of smoothbores. Long eye relief scopes were rare as the only rifles that kicked hard enough to really need them were African dangerous game rifles but those as a rule wore open sights. Teenaged me learned that shooting a 1 3/8 oz Brenneke attached wad slug out of a 7 pound slug gun has a recoil between a .458 Winchester Magnum and a .460 Weatherby Magnum the hard way by getting 16 stitches. I did end up shooting several deer with that gun using Ballistic Research .50 caliber saboted police ammunition designed to shoot through doors, walls, cars, and rumor has it disable vehicles by penetrating engine blocks. Those "only" had a recoil only a little worse than a .375 H&H but it was enough of a decrease to not drive the scope into my face.Try out a garand.... I thought I was going to lose my thumb.
Member
LOL, no kidding! Having tried it, I just can't find the desire to continue to use that technique. A drill sergeant would have a blast with my two handed approach.Try out a garand.... I thought I was going to lose my thumb.
Member
Being "blessed" with a suspicious mind, you just pretty much said what I'm wondering about. A couple questions about the accident study. Nothing is done that doesn't financially benefit someone, so when a study like this comes out, who benefits? As Phillip also pointed out, the data mining might be pretty low quality, which in my mind might allow for more bias. What if that bias was to inflate the numbers to motivate sales of a particular product?
From a purely anecdotal sense, my little town/area has around 6000 people, and 30 to 40 full time tradesmen (who I'm familiar with) and probably another 10 or 15 that temp or pass through in a construction trades. It's a pretty close community, meaning that whenever something happens to one of us, we all know it. The lumber yard crews are a very efficient clearing house of info. In the last year, there have been no reports of saw injuries amongst us. Further, because it's a small town, and odd accidents actually make the local news still, the lack of reports of saw accidents is somewhat meaningful, and there were none last year that I noted. Knowing a couple people who work at the local hospital, I have heard reports of several construction accidents, a fall and a nail gun, but no saw accidents. All that together is completely anecdotal, but it isn't consistent with the study.
Because I'm hoping math will cause sleepiness as I sit here at 3 am, here are some badly calculated numbers. The study indicates that there should be 233 tablesaws in my community. I highly doubt that's accurate, but run with it. Extrapolating the data out, and there should have been over 2 reported saw accidents last year. Maybe there were, but of the people most likely to get injured because we use them the most, there were thankfully none. Maybe we are more careful here. I realize that my math is statistically incorrect, and meaningless, but my point is that I'm skeptical about the the study, and I wonder if it's being used to sell a product.
Member
Regarding the safety switch,, my previous contractor saw and the benchtop before that had a removable yellow tab to prevent kids etc from starting the saw (if you took the tab out and hid it) Page 23 of the report asks if the switch was removable, so I am inclined to think this removable yellow tab would be the safety switch they speak of.
Bill
Member
The only saw injury I have ever had was from a hand saw. I don't remember the details as it happened 50+ years ago but I had a scar on the rear knuckle of my left thumb for years. Seems to have gone now. I guess age can do that to you.
i carried a gun on duty for years and still carry one daily. Only injury from that was slide bite from a 1911 during basic training. My current carry 1911 has an ample beaver tail to prevent that.
Marshall
---------------------------
A Stickley fan boy.
Member
Very informative thread, and interesting responses. May I add this: when you work with your hands the probability exists your hands may get injured. Add some disregard for the equipment, the accident rate will increase, add being rushed, ........
Working in the field for 50+ years with a fair share of accidents, I can thank the Lord above for allowing me to continue.
Member
My only woodworking injury of note (aside from splinters and small cuts) was from the planer shooting a piece of wood out. I had my thumb right on a corner of it, and the force took a little divot of skin and nail off. Not enough for me to go to a doctor, but enough to warrant a bandage. Now I am more careful with the planer, and how I guide the wood in.
Guest
I am very glad for everyone that has not experienced a power saw accident (or known someone directly that has) and I truly hope you good fortune continues.
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote