Hand tool speed i

[Osvaldo Cristo]

That is very nice work Brandon. Sometimes, but not always, it is far easier to use hand tools and faster too. On work such as your chamfers it is so much easier to pick up a block plane than to get out a power router, cords, bits make test cuts that it is no contest. I think a lot of times the scope of the work defines the tools required.
Jim

Fully agree you.

It is funny when I see guys looking for his power impact driver to screw only one or two wood screws. An archaic and outdated simple screwdriver could be way faster...

[Robert Hazelwood]

Well I'm 33, which I guess is on the younger end of the woodworker spectrum. When I started getting into woodworking I was 27, and living in a rental house while working on location for a construction job (i.e. I had moved halfway across the country to work on a project that would last 2-4 years). From an early age I had always tinkered and built things, so I had managed to swing a place with a 2 car garage. So space wasn't an issue, but I definitely did not want to deal with moving a bunch of equipment back across the country when the job wrapped up. Plus in a rental you can't modify the shop space much, and this place would have needed a lot of work to get a good power tool setup. So life circumstances did play a role in my initial orientation towards hand tools. I also just found hand tools fascinating.

A big hangup for me with power tools was dust collection. I could imagine a way to fit some machines in the shop, but then when I considered getting a big enough dust collector and cyclone and all of the ductwork it just started to seem too complex, at least for a more or less temporary shop. It's a can of worms, which you can tell by the fact that most of the threads in the workshop forum here are about dust collection. You have to be really committed to the hobby to be willing to set up all of that. If someone vaguely interested in woodworking looks into it and perceives that is that standard set up they would need, I can easily see it putting them off. You could say something similar about sharpening I guess...

But yeah, young people are generally on the lower end of income and job security, and more likely to need to move in the near future. All of these are severe impediments to setting up a modern power tool shop. However it seems to me that for younger woodworkers, though they may be few in number, hand tools are more en vogue. There are a lot of people on Instagram doing work in the spare bedroom or balcony of their apartment. Whereas the local woodworking club, mostly retiree age, seem to regard hand tools as arcane and completely antiquated.

In the end though, woodworking is just a demanding hobby. You can eliminate some of the money and space requirements if you use hand tools, but you trade that for a steeper learning curve. Not many people want to learn difficult things.

[Warren Lake]

If you want to make a living good luck with that. We were taught dont use a hand tool when you can use a machine, that statement has proven itself to me likely thousands of times over the years. Chances I could have done all different types of custom work ive done with hand tools are zero and little to do with my experience or skill set with them.

[Andrew Seemann]

I do both power and hand tools, and I am not dogmatic about using either. I've been fortunate enough to accumulate many of both over the last 40 years. While I like the process of using tools, I also like taking an idea and bringing it to completion; the means isn't the end for me. I don't have nearly enough time to be exclusively hand tool, nor the desire. I did plenty of manual labor in my youth, enough to not see anything romantic about ending a day sore and exhausted. I also find that as I get older and more arthritic, I can't do the things that I used to do all day long. I recently rediscovered my random orbit sanders when my hands and back informed me they didn't appreciate being asked to plane and scrape for hours on end. I still like learning new techniques and keeping my skills up, but I don't see any point in using hand tools for the sake of using hand tools.

Don't get me wrong, I probably do more handwork than the typical power tool worker, and if I can do something as fast or nearly as fast by hand I still do. I also do more power tools than they typical hand tool worker. For me they work best together, rather than in opposition.

[Andrey Kharitonkin]

If you want to compare the speed between power tools and hand tools then it probably means also to prepare the stock by hand vs by machine, which not every "neanderthal" nowadays does. But if stock is prepared by hand then it boils down to how efficiently coarse tools are used. And the longer time coarse tool is used and more accuracy the better (pretty much what Shannon Rogers was saying in his video about saws https://youtu.be/FTB4Ghxwwvk).

There were links to videos about some old Chinese woodworker in some thread few years ago - he was amazingly fast. I noticed that he would not care so much about second face and edge, as long as he can mark and cut the joints. Once assembled then he would clean external surfaces and leave internal or hidden rough. Changing order of operations such way one can avoid unnecessary work or do two things at once. Something to think about.

[James Pallas]

What started me thinking about this subject was the fact that old records show things like workers making 6 candle stands a day or ten drawers. After looking at lots of pictures I came to the realization that it was the level of finish that was part of the key to the speed. I'm certain I'm not the first person to recognize this by a long ways. I concluded for myself that this was part of the speed secret. Does that table apron need to be finished on 6 sides. Do all of the aprons on one table need to be exactly 3/4 thick? Does the table top need to finish out at exactly 1 inch? I decided for myself that I needed to think a lot different when hand working as opposed to machine working. If you have doubts just look under the fenders of that 60 grand suv in your driveway.
Jim

[Matthew Hartlin]

I find this topic very interesting(along with the wealth of knowledge on this forum) and I find it interesting that most people seem to have come to the same conclusions that I have;

1. Hand tools are fairly cheap and accessible compared to a power tool shop.
2. If you're working this as a hobby, time to complete a project is not of the utmost importance.
3. Hand tool projects are not equal to power tool projects, ie 4S4, everything being exactly 3/4, mirror finishes on all surfaces.

What I find very interesting in the speed discussion is the hours of service these craftsmen had under their belts in their apprenticeships. Likely thousands of hours working in the shop as a young man into adult hood. No matter the time or effort you can put into preparing stock by hand, cutting dovetails, glue-ups, without the thousands of hours of practice I don't think we can ever truly appreciate how quickly they could work. In any case, I very quickly realized that power tools were not for me in my hobby, the size, noise and dust was not something that I had the time or money to deal with. Luckily I had a pretty well stocked toll chest handed down to me that forced me into hand tools and 5 years on I'm beginning to see myself as competent. I do think the learn curve with handtools is much steeper than power tools. I swear it took me 2 years just to figure how the core tools worked.

[Brian Holcombe]

There are many areas where hand tools are a great choice for speed, efficiency and unencumbered use. These areas are only found if you go through the paces with hand tools and dedicate the effort to making with them. This pays dividends in later use.

Here is example, I use a number of small Japanese planes for various work, chamfer, round-over, chair making planes, etc, etc. These are only working great because I went through the effort of really learning kanna, and pushing myself and using it daily even when I wanted to chuck it over my shoulder and return to a #4 plane. Now I use these without issue because I can diagnose issues quickly.

Diagnostics are where it either very much comes together or completely falls apart and gets stuck on the shelf. The same goes for machine tools, taking the time to know your tools and diagnose issues you have with them is the best way to get a well working setup. A well working setup combined with a user in tune with tool and work are where really great work starts turning out.

Speed is a critical factor in handtool use because efficient use of the tools brings about the realization that they're effective.

[Warren Mickley]

As a long time hand tool professional, it is sometimes humorous to read people's perceptions. Some can't imagine that one would get faster and more efficient with regular work. In general, if the work was designed for hand tools it is more economical to make by hand and if it was designed for machines it is more economical by machine.

Sometimes it is hard to predict which way would be best. A guy from a millwork company was having me do some carving for a fireplace. After going over the drawings, he said "maybe you would like to make these mouldings also." The mouldings were complicated so I was a little skeptical and I said " How much would it cost you to makes these mouldings?" "Hundreds of dollars a piece" It was kind of a shock, but when he explained why they were difficult to make with machinery, I agreed to make them and they were very happy.

I could tell lots of stories like this, but the main thing is that even a guy in this market does not always know what the most efficient way is; others are only guessing.

I find that well prepared stock saves time all the way down the line. If one has done a good job with the trying plane the joinery fits better and only a single layer has to be removed to clean with the smoothing plane. Subsequent staining and finishing is much easier because of the quality of the surface.

[Brandon Speaks]

Doing production work is different than hobby work. For production work the machines are set up based on a planned workflow, in hobby work the equation changes.

I am by no means putting down machine work though, I have and use a table saw, bandsaw, router both in and out of a table, drill press, and just about any hand power tool.

Which i use is all situational, if I need to cut a couple boards grabbing the handsaw is often quicker than getting set up on any of the above, if I need to cut a lot the power tool is quicker.

As Warren Mickley said also it depends on skill level, he and many here are doubtless at least twice or three times as fast with hand tools compared to me, that again changes the equation.

In the end for me I do this only for fun, so just choose which ever tool I feel like using.

[John C Cox]

What started me thinking about this subject was the fact that old records show things like workers making 6 candle stands a day or ten drawers. After looking at lots of pictures I came to the realization that it was the level of finish that was part of the key to the speed. I'm certain I'm not the first person to recognize this by a long ways. I concluded for myself that this was part of the speed secret. Does that table apron need to be finished on 6 sides. Do all of the aprons on one table need to be exactly 3/4 thick? Does the table top need to finish out at exactly 1 inch? I decided for myself that I needed to think a lot different when hand working as opposed to machine working. If you have doubts just look under the fenders of that 60 grand suv in your driveway.
Jim

Jim,
That's a good point. And often as not - we have to "re-learn" not onlh hand tool ways of doing things - but how designs of things made by hand tools can (and should) differ......

For example - it's very very easy to make a lot of different things with hand tools.. And it's very very easy to make a lot of the "same things" with power tools.... But doing it the other way around doesn't always go so well...

Mimicing factory methods makes sense for a factory or where you are making many of the same things... And it often makes sense with power tools and jigs which take some time to get set up properly... And so you end up "batching" parts... You make all the legs in 1 go.. Flatten and thickness all the parts in 1 go... All the drawer sides in 1 go.. All the drawer fronts in another go... All the drawer backs in another go... All the parts are interchangeable. And then you make all the tenons in 1 go... All the dovetail pins in a separate go, all the mortises in another go, and finally all the dovetail tails in another go.... Etc.... Then you fit it all together like a big lego set if you have done your job well..... And you do it this way for power tool specific reasons - aka it can be difficult and time consuming to mimic the same setup twice or 14 times... And so within this paradigm - things are DESIGNED for as many common and symmetrical parts as possible.... For example - the design makes all the drawers the same size so that you can run them off in 1 go...

But look at many old things..... Almost nothing is really perfectly symmetrical. No two things are really perfectly "the same"... All the drawers may be slightly different sizes and fitted to their openings. Often their dovetails, pins, mortises, and tenons would not interchange with other pieces - they are hand fitted. When you look at the shapes - the lines all flow cleanly, but they aren't exactly the same... And this is an intentional part of the design. It's part of making hand work "work" right.... Second - since things are designed this way - you plan for things in "nowhere land" to receive the minimum amount of work required.... So they didn't bother with even cleaning up the saw marks and inconsistent thicknesses left after jointing boards inside the aprons of a table top or on the "inside" of upholstered furniture past a quick knock down of splinters... This is part of the intentional design of hand made things... Where a factory made thing requires all these surfaces to be clean sanded, consistent thickness, square and true so their jigs, fixtures, and power tools work correctly....

It's worth thinking about.....

[John C Cox]

Warren has stated this probably better than I can...

Here's my example of hobby guitar building by hand....

This year - I am doing 3 guitars..... Each one is completely different. Mostly handwork... Different size, shape, wood, scale, etc... And as such - trying to "batch" things beyond the initial stock prep doesn't really work well - because everything is different once you get past 1 of the 3 guitars.. And almost all the parts end up being hand fitted. And so because of that - I am very unhappy with how the "workflow" was progressing trying to do the "same" operation to 3 completely different guitars at once (where the "same" operation was actually completely different on each one because of the hand fitting)...

It's actually hugely unsatisfying because I now have 3x as much "Unfinished" project work as when doing them 1 at a time....

and because of that - at this point in the builds, I have basically switched back to doing 1 guitar at a time... This way - I can "Start, Work, and Finish" on something rather than "Pick up, put down, start, stop, start, stop.. Still not done yet.... Hey look - 3 half built guitars are staring at me. "

The other huge benefit of this is that it splits up the most tedious and least favorite parts so I am not grinding away on 3 guitars worth of my least favorite operation all at once....

As a long time hand tool professional, it is sometimes humorous to read people's perceptions. Some can't imagine that one would get faster and more efficient with regular work. In general, if the work was designed for hand tools it is more economical to make by hand and if it was designed for machines it is more economical by machine.

Sometimes it is hard to predict which way would be best. A guy from a millwork company was having me do some carving for a fireplace. After going over the drawings, he said "maybe you would like to make these mouldings also." The mouldings were complicated so I was a little skeptical and I said " How much would it cost you to makes these mouldings?" "Hundreds of dollars a piece" It was kind of a shock, but when he explained why they were difficult to make with machinery, I agreed to make them and they were very happy.

I could tell lots of stories like this, but the main thing is that even a guy in this market does not always know what the most efficient way is; others are only guessing.

I find that well prepared stock saves time all the way down the line. If one has done a good job with the trying plane the joinery fits better and only a single layer has to be removed to clean with the smoothing plane. Subsequent staining and finishing is much easier because of the quality of the surface.

[James Pallas]

I like to see everyone join in the conversations. I like to think that hand tool workers in the past were very good. They didn't waste a lot of time on things. They were out to get the work done with the quality required and make a living. I just can't picture a worker 4 squaring a 10 ft board to get a 3 ft piece or thicknessing a table apron to make it exactly 3/4. I can see them getting the face side flat and the width right and looking good because they needed that to work toward a finished piece. The machine worker needs to flatten both sides so the machine can work properly in many cases or to accurately make on size fits all parts. I'm not saying one way is good or bad. The work is just different.
Jim

[Mike Holbrook]

I will throw in with Andrey above. How can one compare machine work to hand work without taking a look at the prep work to get the stock. As has been said many times in other posts machine work is largely set up work. Typically as machines go up in cost there get to be more and more features that may speed up set up time. There is most likely an infinite number of jigs one can make or buy to speed up production with machines. I believe one could spend a lifetime designing and making jigs and never get anything actually made. I am not, of course, speaking from personal experience.

At the same time there is a great deal one can do with “coarser” tools, should one decide to take the time to develop the requisite skill set. Take the lowly wedge or froe. A dull tool with major taper simply will not do what a sharp well tapered tool will. It is easy to test this simply by using better and cruder mauls and splitting axes. The cruder tool will make lots of splinters and go where the grain goes. The other tool may enable the user to split off small exact pieces. Taking the time to: mark splitting lines, make good gluts, have appropriate axes to help with splits and cut connecting wood.......can produce results that I suspect many woodworkers will never see. Once you see a guy like Drew Langsner split precise 3/4” pieces out of small logs, using an axe or froe you figure out it is possible.

IMHO, in my humble opinion, we have gotten to the point that we try to emulate, the rather boaring flat surfaces machines make in wood with hand tools. Lately I find myself asking why I would want to do that. How many of us actually write on paper at a desk or set things on a table that can not handle a slightly rougher surface? The iPad I am posting with works on rough surfaces or even in my lap.

[Brian Holcombe]

Machine made is not necessarily square and flat. Check out danish chairs by any of the famous makers of the post WWII period, not a straight board in the group typically and not one thing made by hand short of some touch up work with shaves. I make by hand and I can tell you, getting perfect curves by hand is not easy, duplicating things even less easy.

It's very hard to say 'this is this, that is that' and do so in a way that actually covers the broad spectrum. I think Warren's comments cover it very well, things designed for hand tools are best made by hand and things designed for machine tools best made by machine.