Endovar vs. Arm-R-Seal

[Mike Gottlieb]

In the past I have usually finished my furniture projects with wipe-on coats of Arm-R-Seal. I now am considering spraying using General Finishes Endovar. Is there much of a difference in durability between the two finishes? This would be the first time I have considered using a waterbed finish.

[John TenEyck]

From the testing I've done Mike there isn't much difference in durability between the two. Both are very resistant to most common foods and household chemicals, including those containing ammonia. Both stand up well to really hot dishes. Both will survive at least brief exposure to acetone and very long exposure to water and alcohol.

FYI, the testing I did was on well cured specimens, meaning more than 7 days for EnduroVar and 21 days for ARS.

John

[Patrick Chase]

In the past I have usually finished my furniture projects with wipe-on coats of Arm-R-Seal. I now am considering spraying using General Finishes Endovar. Is there much of a difference in durability between the two finishes? This would be the first time I have considered using a waterbed finish.

I haven't worked with Enduro-Var in particular but have worked with similar state of the (commercially available) art water-based oil-modified urethanes. As John says such finishes are right up there with oil-based varnishes like ARS in terms of durability. I posted a link to a technical article from a trade conference in another thread a few days back, that goes into both how the chemistries work and provides comparisons to oil-based vanishes.

I think you're making a good decision by focusing on spraying. IMO the water-based coatings as a class are less forgiving to apply by hand, particularly by wiping. Brushing can also be a little bit challenging because the faster initial evaporation rate means that you have to move fast to keep a wet edge (though not as fast as with, say, shellac).

Quality water-based finishes are also more expensive than their oil-based equivalents ($30+ vs $20 per quart in this instance, for example).

[Mike Gottlieb]

I really appreciate your responses. I am going to give the Endovar a try.

[Matt Day]

I sprayed Enduro Var for the first time a couple months ago and it went great. I used a HF purple gun, no thinning required. I’m not sure i’ll ever go back to wiping/brushing!

[Prashun Patel]

The general finishes website shows arm r seal to be the more durable of the two.

[Patrick Chase]

The general finishes website shows arm r seal to be the more durable of the two.

Where on their website?

That doesn't surprise me, though the differences shouldn't be large.

[John TenEyck]

Go to the products and click on the "Specs" tab.

John

[Patrick Chase]

Go to the products and click on the "Specs" tab.

John

Hmm, I was afraid we might be talking about those. The only specs they present that have any meaning are the Koenig and Taber scores (one of which favors ARS, and the other of which favors Enduro-Var). The others are just arbitrarily defined marketing puffery as far as I can tell. I looked at some length for definitions of the "water" and "chemical" tests and how the scores are determined, but can't find them.

It would be nice if they followed their competitors' lead and presented KCMA results or something else that ties back to a well-defined and customer-reproducible methodology.

If we take those scores at face value then Enduro-Var performs on par with Enduro WB Lacquer and inferior to Enduro Clear Poly. It's also rated as less "durable" than their old High Performance WB varnish. It seems very remarkable that a recently released oil-modified urethane would do that poorly. They also show it as being almost as hard as the lacquer and significantly harder than any of their other varnishes, which again is quite remarkable in a finish that's supposed to be optimized for toughness (hardness and toughness inevitably trade off against each other).

Either Enduro-Var isn't at all what it's billed as being, or those scores are incorrect. I actually suspect the latter - I used to work in product design, and this sort of thing happens.

[John TenEyck]

Hmm, I was afraid we might be talking about those. The only specs they present that have any meaning are the Koenig and Taber scores (one of which favors ARS, and the other of which favors Enduro-Var). The others are just arbitrarily defined marketing puffery as far as I can tell. I looked at some length for definitions of the "water" and "chemical" tests and how the scores are determined, but can't find them.

It would be nice if they followed their competitors' lead and presented KCMA results or something else that ties back to a well-defined and customer-reproducible methodology.

If we take those scores at face value then Enduro-Var performs on par with Enduro WB Lacquer and inferior to Enduro Clear Poly. It's also rated as less "durable" than their old High Performance WB varnish. It seems very remarkable that a recently released oil-modified urethane would do that poorly. They also show it as being almost as hard as the lacquer and significantly harder than any of their other varnishes, which again is quite remarkable in a finish that's supposed to be optimized for toughness (hardness and toughness inevitably trade off against each other).

Either Enduro-Var isn't at all what it's billed as being, or those scores are incorrect. I actually suspect the latter - I used to work in product design, and this sort of thing happens.

EnduroVar has been around for a long time. I've used gallons and gallons of the stuff. It is WAY better than HP Poly in terms of chemical durability. HP Poly and Enduro Clear Poly are both harder, but HP Poly has low chemical durability. I don't use it any longer for that reason. Clear Poly looks the same as HP Poly and is nearly as good as EnduroVar. As I stated earlier, EnduroVar tested the same as Arm-R-Seal in the side by side tests I did a few years ago. GF's ratings are, as you said, unspecific in most cases, and don't mesh well with my own testing. And you are right, TC lists objective test results against recognized standards, something GF does only when it suits them. On the other hand, I never have problems with GF's products; the only time I used a TC product it was a disaster.

One other thing I should have mentioned earlier. Arm-R-Seal and EnduroVar don't look the same on identical pieces of wood. ARS will look like a traditional pale varnish. EnduroVar won't, no matter what it says on the label. If you are considering use it, be sure to test it on scrap to make sure you like the look. I'm not saying it's bad; I've had great results with it, especially when using it over Transtint. All I'm saying is it looks different than Arm-R-Seal.

John

[Prashun Patel]

i have had good luck with clear poly over shellac. good color. good durability.

[Mike Gottlieb]

John, What do you mean by chemical durability? I have been thinking about using GF's HP Poly over a water-based dyed cherry cabinet.

[John TenEyck]

John, What do you mean by chemical durability? I have been thinking about using GF's HP Poly over a water-based dyed cherry cabinet.

When I say chemical durability I mean resistance to water, food, and especially ammonia containing household cleaners like Windex and Fantastic, as well as alcohol and acetone. HP Poly rates very poorly in resistance to the cleaners, alcohol, and acetone.

Here's a photo of three test specimens with very well cured ARS, HP Poly, and Urethane Gel Topcoat:



The two on the left are ARS, HP Poly in the middle, and Gel Topcoat on the right. I put several ml of H2O, DNA, acetone, and 409 (bottom, w/o label) on each. The acetone and especially the 409 really chewed up the HP poly and Gel Topcoat. Here's another photo testing ketchup, mustard, and port wine:



None of them did any lasting damage. Here are the specimens after I wiped them clean and buffed them with a cotton towel:



Here are a couple of bonus photos were I put boiling water in glass cups on each specimen:







Nothing did any permanent damage to the Arm-R-Seal. HP Poly and the Gel Topcoat didn't fair so well. I would not use HP Poly anywhere you need resistance to chemicals or hot cups/plates.

John

[Mike Gottlieb]

Thanks John, Very informative. Your posts have provided me with a lot of educational material.

[Patrick Chase]

Thanks John, Very informative. Your posts have provided me with a lot of educational material.

If you see KCMA (Kitchen Cabinet Manufacturers' Association) tests referenced anyway, they're basically a formalized version of what John did there.