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Thread: Any experience with persimmon?

  1. #1

    Any experience with persimmon?

    Wound up with a single 16' log about 14" diameter. Straight as a gun barrel. Broke it into two logs (dont need long lengths). Never sawn, or seen, persimmon. Thanks for any input.

  2. #2
    None. But I've read that they used to make golf club heads out of it. Was often used up North for mallets,while the South
    used dogwood.

  3. #3
    Thanks Mel. I've seen the golf club thing. Dont often get my hands on odd logs. This will be interesting .

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Bolton View Post
    Wound up with a single 16' log about 14" diameter. Straight as a gun barrel. Broke it into two logs (dont need long lengths). Never sawn, or seen, persimmon. Thanks for any input.
    Mark,

    I've sawn several persimmon trees from my own property. I love the wood, hard, heavy, fine grained - related to ebony and sometimes called White Ebony. Extremely strong wood. It does make great mallets, tool handles, and especially for woodturning small things.

    Persimmon trees/logs used to be very valuable due to the golf club business (buyers used to roam the countryside offering farmers good money for persimmon trees) but now they are not. However, you can sell the wood to turners and flat woodworkers - The Wood Database indicates prices should be high for domestic species. The problem for users is finding it but the problem for you might be connecting with buyers. (The Wood Database entry, if you haven't seen it: http://www.wood-database.com/persimmon/ )

    The wood may be quite variable in color from one tree to the next. I've sawn persimmon twice, once about 15 years ago and once 5 years ago after removing a tree when building my shop. The wood from the two trees is very different - one is much lighter, a creamy white, and the other is darker with a lot of color variation.

    My experience is it saws well but warps like crazy when air drying. For example, I have a 2x10 in my shop that cupped at least 3/4" even when stickered with some weight. Large woodturning blocks warp into trapazoids and twist if cut so the grain is not straight down the length. I have some blocks about 4" thick and they have dried warped but without checking or cracking. (I did use AnchorSeal on the end grain.)

    Even severe warping is not a problem for me since I usually rip planks into woodturning blanks after drying. Once dry persimmon seems quite stable. I've used it for a number of spindle projects including turned lidded boxes and other small things:

    persimmon_boxes_e_small.jpg crop_xxx_2015_IMG_4737.jpg

    The heartwood at the pith is very small which you can probably see from the end of the log, as black as gaboon ebony. If a board or block contains the black heartwood it often cracks when drying.

    If you want flat boards from the tree you might have the most success quartersawing to minimize cupping, but a log that size would give pretty narrow boards. Otherwise, saw very thick and expect to plane flat after drying. To minimize twist and bowing I'd try to saw with the grain running as straight down the board as possible. I did weight the stack when I cut boards but when I saw again I'm going to try a lot more weight and perhaps clamps with ratchet straps - I have no idea if that will help! I cut the most recent log into a bunch of turning blocks and some firewood.

    Persimmon is common around here. I counted over 25 good-sized persimmon trees on my property, all with straight trunks. A farmer a near here has the biggest I've ever seen right next to his house, maybe 28" in diameter and very straight for probably over 30 feet - he told me we could cut it down if I wanted the wood. It's tempting.

    JKJ

  5. #5
    I've only seen pictures of it used in Korean furniture- the contrast between heart and sapwood can be spectacular - https://www.orientalfurnishings.com/...on-wood-chest/. Here's a turner's take on "white ebony" http://woodturnersunlimited.com/inde...american-ebony.

    I like living where I do but I envy your access to such a wider variety of wood species in log form.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Jenness View Post
    I've only seen pictures of it used in Korean furniture- the contrast between heart and sapwood can be spectacular - https://www.orientalfurnishings.com/...on-wood-chest/. Here's a turner's take on "white ebony" http://woodturnersunlimited.com/inde...american-ebony.

    I like living where I do but I envy your access to such a wider variety of wood species in log form.
    He comparison of persimmon to dogwood is interesting. Dogwood is probably my favorite domestic wood for turning, can finish smooth as glass almost like persimmon. It also warps a lot when drying, is mostly light sapwood with a relatively small dark heartwood, and will crack from drying stresses around the heartwood. Dogwood doesn't seem to be attacked by boring insects as much as persimmon, instead, if left on the ground I've seen it change from a creamy white/pink/beige to a kind of ugly grey, probably by spalting fungi.

    Dogwood also has interesting bark similarity to persimmon - very distinctive chips or "raised segments" as Mr Manley puts it, but in miniature and lighter grey/brown. We have a lot of dogwood trees here, but as mentioned, they rarely get very big. I did cut a yard tree that was over 12" in diameter and got some good-sized boards and turning blanks from it, drying now since 2006.

    TN has a huge variety of hardwoods. Between the tree services, the utility companies, and keeping eyes open anyone with a sawmill can quickly be overwhelmed with logs.

    JKJ

  7. #7
    Gosh,
    Im glad I asked. I have been sawing all of our inch lumber dead on the inch. Comes off the mill a fat 15/16", dries to a bit over .850 and is two and half passes on the planer to dead clean. Thats of course with high quality logs. Low grade we saw a bit thicker knowing its going to take more to surface.

    That sounds like it would have been a mistake with the Persimmon if its so bad to move. These logs are straight as gun barrel but it sounds like that may not matter. Now Im going to be scratching my head on this one lol.

    When the woman whose house it was told me it was persimmon I wasnt sure I believed her but in the end it is very hard and super white, almost waxy, end grain on a fresh cut and has just a small pith that is nearly dead back/dark brown.

    Im eager to get it on the mill. I have 10 or so logs ahead of it including two monster ask logs near 30" dia and 12' long. Perhaps I will jump these ahead in line lol.

    Going to have to spend some time thinking about breaking these down though. I hadnt intended on sawing any really thick stuff (6/4 or 8/4) because the logs arent that big in diameter. Maybe I should break one down thick and one 5/4. Now I will be on the hunt for more.

    Thanks a bunch. Will post some photos when I get them opened up.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Bolton View Post
    Gosh,
    Im glad I asked. I have been sawing all of our inch lumber dead on the inch. ... That sounds like it would have been a mistake with the Persimmon if its so bad to move.
    I haven't tried it but 4/4 boards might dry flat if well stickered and weighted. I sawed all mine heavier (8/4 for planks, up to 4x4" for blocks) and maybe they were just too thick to be forced flat by the moderate weight I had on the stack.

    I don't know if you need to be in a hurry to saw it this time of the year, especially if blocked up off the ground, sealed on the ends, and perhaps sprayed with boracare or something. Chunks I left on the ground a few months before splitting into firewood were full of worm holes (the second photo I showed in the other message.) When I finally split the wood I saw the holes and salvaged a few pieces for turning.

    JKJ

  9. #9
    This stuff has been down for a while but the logs were on the skidway so off the ground. Im not too concerned with the holes. Its just so painfully slow to saw boards on a manual mill I try to get top quality if Im going to take the time. May jump them ahead in line we will see. If I get them opened up this weekend I'll post some photos.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Bolton View Post
    Its just so painfully slow to saw boards on a manual mill I try to get top quality if Im going to take the time.
    My mill is a manual LT15 Woodmizer, so I know what you mean! Next for me are some big white oak logs - I need some thick planks for outdoor steps. I'm not looking forward to the while oak after the soft cedar! (I've been sawing eastern red cedar for siding for my new peacock house.)

    sawmill_cedar_log_cant.jpg peacock_house_B.jpg

    Do you saw to sell? Mine is for farm use and sometimes woodturning blanks for myself and friends. I hold a couple of 8/4 boards together with lag screws to saw short pieces.

    sawmill_blanks.jpg

    JKJ

  11. #11
    Its a mixed bag. I sell quite a bit of wood. We use a good bit here in the shop. I virtually never saw anything we can buy in because its just not cost effective. I can buy KD material so cheap and dont have to cut trees, skid them in to the mill, saw, deal with slabs, stack and sticker, move them into kiln, re-stack, plane, deal with miles of chips off the planer, and so on.

    I generally just saw odd stuff. Species and cuts that are not available locally. Super wide stuff. Quarter and rift. Crotch and figure, and so on. I do saw some plain jane stuff (poplar, oak, hickory, etc) around my place and others but its only when there is a bunch of cleanup or someone else has done the cutting and skidding.

    My property is 115 acres and another 5 or so around the business. Plenty of wood but like I say, just sawing straight 4/4 material for the shop just isnt worth it.

    Ive been sawing up all this Ash off my place just because it kills me to see it standing dead but even with that Ive been leaving any less than juicy trees and just trying to get the monsters or super dead straight, odd crotches, and so on. I think Ive said it here before,.. I cut a pile of Ash and think Ive got the bulk of it and then look over my shoulder and see 20 more trees. Gotta give up at some point lol. This last session at my place on the mill there was in excess of 60 logs on the skidway at one point. Thats just way too much for a manual mill and a 50 year old lol.

  12. #12
    I have a lot of experience with it. I find it to be very beautiful. If it is an old tree and has good heartwood formation, it can be spectacular.

    It is difficult to dry straight. It cups badly and wants to dry in a wave. I have cut and dried a good bit of it. Best market has been for 2" material once dried and planed. It would need to be sawn at 2 3/8" thick or 2 1/2" thick to clean up at 2". If you want it to clean up as 4/4, saw it 1 3/16" thick. I have sold to to a martial arts fighting sticks maker, plane makers (they use it for the sole plate), a golf club head restorer, two different luthiers for instrument necks and fretboards, a croquet mallet maker, a ceremonial box maker in Japan, and several turkey call makers. The turkey call makers really like it.

    Highest value is quartersawn. That is what the plane makers want. It is in the ebony family and is sometimes called American ebony or white ebony. The black in the heartwood is essentially ebony. Here is a pic of some 2 3/8" thick, 18" wide slabs cut from an old persimmon tree with a lot of heartwood.



    IMG_1875_resized.jpg

  13. #13
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    I purchased a couple of boards of persimmon from a local saw mill in 5/4 and 8/4 thicknesses. I have used it for mallets and as a replacement for boxwood as wear strips for side escapement planes. It works well and finishes to a very nice glow.

    David Turner
    North Raleigh

  14. #14
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    I use persimmon as boxing, the wear surface, in my plane making. I bought it from Danny, two posts up. Has to be dried well, and free of knots. High demand by planemakers.
    Jeff

  15. #15
    Thank you, Jeff. It is so hard to get the logs.

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