Dye and Finish over liming wax?

[john schnyderite]

I'm working on an oak bar. My thought is to use mission brown dye, shellac and then age with liming wax. My issue however is that I'd like the finish to repel rings from drinks and such. Is there something I can put over these products that would help repel water stains?

Also, some videos I've seen of oak being dyed has the grain contrast wider than my test piece. Is there a trick to getting more contrast when using dyes? My boards are reclaimed and I only did one coat so far -- and didn't let it sit long before wiping. First time using dye so I was hoping for some wisdom.

[Doug Hepler]

John

1. Dye to bare wood will give you the greatest penetration, hence the most color. I don't know how to increase earlywood/latewood contrast except to let it stay on longer. An oil stain might be worth trying. Maybe someone else has a another suggestion.
2. Shellac is a poor choice for a bar. It is vulnerable to water and, especially, alcohol. You can get a two part epoxy varnish that is waterproof. There was recently a discussion about this in this forum, but I can't find it while I am writing this reply. Wayne Lomman and Patrick Chase were involved in that discussion. You can buy 2-part epoxy bar finishes.
3. If you want a limed effect you can fill the pores with opaque white pore filler (e.g., Behlen) after dyeing or staining I don't think liming wax is a particularly durable approach to this. Also, wax may cause serious adhesion problems with subsequent coats of finish. I can't be more specific, except to warn you.

So -(a) dye or stain, (b) pore filler, (c) epoxy finish. AS ALWAYS -- WORK IT OUT ON SCRAP

Doug

[Wayne Lomman]

Doug has good advice. Not much to add. Try sanding a bit finer to get contrast. Fine sanding after staining can lighten the harder areas too. You are spot on to wipe the dye off pretty quickly. His last line is your friend. Cheers

[john schnyderite]

I am also building out ceiling beams and hiding lally columns using the same batch of oak and wanted to keep the look uniform with the bar. while I wouldn't mind a glossier epoxy look for the bar top, I really wouldn't want that on the columns and beams I'm making. If there's not a suitable satin finish I can use, maybe I will build the bar base of the oak so that I can use a finish that doesn't need to repel water, then make the top bar rails of a different material that will hold up better to water..

In terms of the contrast. I'll let the dye sit on a test piece for a few minutes before wiping it off to see if that helps at all.

John

1. Dye to bare wood will give you the greatest penetration, hence the most color. I don't know how to increase earlywood/latewood contrast except to let it stay on longer. An oil stain might be worth trying. Maybe someone else has a another suggestion.
2. Shellac is a poor choice for a bar. It is vulnerable to water and, especially, alcohol. You can get a two part epoxy varnish that is waterproof. There was recently a discussion about this in this forum, but I can't find it while I am writing this reply. Wayne Lomman and Patrick Chase were involved in that discussion. You can buy 2-part epoxy bar finishes.
3. If you want a limed effect you can fill the pores with opaque white pore filler (e.g., Behlen) after dyeing or staining I don't think liming wax is a particularly durable approach to this. Also, wax may cause serious adhesion problems with subsequent coats of finish. I can't be more specific, except to warn you.

So -(a) dye or stain, (b) pore filler, (c) epoxy finish. AS ALWAYS -- WORK IT OUT ON SCRAP

Doug

[Doug Hepler]

John,
You asked about a bar top finish. Although you might well choose to use the same dye/stain on the other work, you woudn't need to use epoxy on them. Use satin varnish, whatever you like. Some varnish might add a bit of yellow-orange tint but you can find "water-white" varnish.

Doug

[John TenEyck]

If you want more contrast in the grain then I would apply a pigment stain after the dye, and wipe it off really well. The color stain you choose will determine how much contrast there is. I'm with Doug on the bar top; liming wax isn't going to be durable nor will most any topcoat be compatible with it. If you want that limed oak look I would use a water or oil based stain made for that purpose. Then you will be able to put a clear finish on top that will stay bonded and give you the needed protection.

John

[john schnyderite]

I'm rethinking the wax -- and even open to something other than dye as it appears i can't get both the durability and look I want with the comobo.

So starting from scratch, do you have recommendations on products I could use for a limed look on oak that could be finished with a poly or something a bit better for my purpose?

If you want more contrast in the grain then I would apply a pigment stain after the dye, and wipe it off really well. The color stain you choose will determine how much contrast there is. I'm with Doug on the bar top; liming wax isn't going to be durable nor will most any topcoat be compatible with it. If you want that limed oak look I would use a water or oil based stain made for that purpose. Then you will be able to put a clear finish on top that will stay bonded and give you the needed protection.

John

[John TenEyck]

You can get this look with Zar Coastal Boards OB stain on red oak. The topcoat was GF's High Performance Poly.




There are lots of variations on this depending upon which stain you use and how you manipulate it. If you have a picture of what you are after you might get more specific input.

John

[Doug Hepler]

John,

I thought that I already answered your question. Wayne agreed. John TE added a suggestion for increasing the contrast. You don't seem to agree. Please ask a more specific question or tell us what is wrong.

Doug

[john schnyderite]

Is there a white pore filler that you can find in a big box store you'd recommend? Is pore filler the same as a wood filler?

John,

I thought that I already answered your question. Wayne agreed. John TE added a suggestion for increasing the contrast. You don't seem to agree. Please ask a more specific question or tell us what is wrong.

Doug

[Doug Hepler]

John,

The product I called "pore filler" is better known as "grain filler". It is different than wood filler, which is used to fill larger gaps, nail holes, etc. Grain filler is brushed on (usually) allowed to set a few minutes and then scraped off with a squeegee or wide putty knife. After it has dried, you sand it lightly.

Oil based and water based grain fillers are available. Briwax White Grain Filler will probably come closest to what you need. The water based is easier to use. If you used water based dye on the wood a water based grain filler might tend to dissolve some of it and take on the color of the dye (test on scrap). You want white for a limed effect. Behlen natural color is pale tan. It dries light and might suit you. You could add a bit of white pigment or white oil paint to it to make it whiter.

Crystallac is water based and dries transparent. You could add a bit of white pigment or even white latex paint to it to make it opaque.

I can't speak to availability in a big box store. I would try a Woodcraft, Rockler, or franchised paint store. All of this is available on the web.

John, I answered your original question with what I think is the best way to do this. I am aware that many experts recommend that you use liming wax. I still think white grain filler is the best way to get a limed effect on a bar top that may get hard use. If you simply feel that grain filler is impractical for you at this time, you could use liming wax over the dyed/stained oak instead of grain filler. Then, you could seal it in with dewaxed shellac before applying finish coats of varnish. My concern is the interface between the wax and the shellac. It may be very difficult to get most of the wax off the wood while leaving it in the pores. I think that dewaxed shellac will adhere to a thin coat of wax but it may not adhere or the bond may be weak. Again, try this on scrap first.

Doug

[Edwin Santos]

If you want more contrast in the grain then I would apply a pigment stain after the dye, and wipe it off really well. The color stain you choose will determine how much contrast there is. I'm with Doug on the bar top; liming wax isn't going to be durable nor will most any topcoat be compatible with it. If you want that limed oak look I would use a water or oil based stain made for that purpose. Then you will be able to put a clear finish on top that will stay bonded and give you the needed protection.

John

As an alternative to pore filler, another thing you could do over the dye for highlighting pores is a glaze. For a limed effect, the glaze could be white or another light shade. The stain would need to be locked down first with a sealer coat of say, dewaxed shellac before you apply the glaze because the idea is to apply it liberally and wipe it off to your taste. You could force the glaze in to the large pores in oak with a credit card or some other plastic squeegee across the grain, and combine with a dry brush for manipulating the look.

If the end result is a glass smooth level surface, then the pore filler suggested would be the better way to go because the additional silicate body in it, well, fills pores (with more than just color).
Edwin

[john schnyderite]

I ended up purchasing the briwax white grain filler online, and not only does it look nicer than the liming wax on oak in my opinion, but i'll have some more durable finishing option available to me now. Thanks so much for the advice and expertise!

John,

The product I called "pore filler" is better known as "grain filler". It is different than wood filler, which is used to fill larger gaps, nail holes, etc. Grain filler is brushed on (usually) allowed to set a few minutes and then scraped off with a squeegee or wide putty knife. After it has dried, you sand it lightly.

Oil based and water based grain fillers are available. Briwax White Grain Filler will probably come closest to what you need. The water based is easier to use. If you used water based dye on the wood a water based grain filler might tend to dissolve some of it and take on the color of the dye (test on scrap). You want white for a limed effect. Behlen natural color is pale tan. It dries light and might suit you. You could add a bit of white pigment or white oil paint to it to make it whiter.

Crystallac is water based and dries transparent. You could add a bit of white pigment or even white latex paint to it to make it opaque.

I can't speak to availability in a big box store. I would try a Woodcraft, Rockler, or franchised paint store. All of this is available on the web.

John, I answered your original question with what I think is the best way to do this. I am aware that many experts recommend that you use liming wax. I still think white grain filler is the best way to get a limed effect on a bar top that may get hard use. If you simply feel that grain filler is impractical for you at this time, you could use liming wax over the dyed/stained oak instead of grain filler. Then, you could seal it in with dewaxed shellac before applying finish coats of varnish. My concern is the interface between the wax and the shellac. It may be very difficult to get most of the wax off the wood while leaving it in the pores. I think that dewaxed shellac will adhere to a thin coat of wax but it may not adhere or the bond may be weak. Again, try this on scrap first.

Doug

[Doug Hepler]

John,

I'm very glad that our advice helped you. It's why I participate in SMC and I'm sure that's the case for the others. And thank you for responding. I am often left wondering whether the effort of preparing a reply was worth it. In your case, now we know that it was.

Best regards