Guide System for drilling bench etc. holes LR 32/Festool

[Mike Holbrook]

I am in the process of making a work table\bench and a heavy Roubo bench for my new workshop. I will have limited space. I am using a Noden Adjust A Bench base to make the work table bench so it can be moved to multiple other: machines, benches, MFT...as an out feed or to just make a larger work surface in multiple locations.

I have a few Festool clamps and find them quick and easy to use. I would like to make 20mm holes at Festtol spacing (96mm, I think), particulalry on the adjustable height work surface. I may also use it to space 3/4” holes on the heavy bench.

Amazon offers a 55” Guide LR32 fence for $145. I have a Festool 1400 router. The big kit in a systainer, apppears to offer options for connecting multiple types of routers and other things I may not need. The $530 kit price may be more than I need. I have multiple Festool systainer/sortainers boxes, not sure I need more. Will the LR32 Guide Rail and my OF 1400 router and existing router guide rail guide handle my needs? Festools price for the LR32 guide rail base for my router is $270, which means I might as well just buy the kit....???

[Victor Robinson]

Mike,

To use the LR32 system at the least cost, you need a LR32 guide rail, the $270 LR32 "Hole Drilling Set" (583290), and of course, a compatible router. The $270 set lacks a systainer, clamps, and the 5mm and 35mm router bits which are included in 584100.

Now that all being said, I don't think the LR32 is the best way to make a 20mm dog hole grid that is accurate. I've done it that way and the results were fine for dog holes but not for getting the precise squareness of a Festool or CNC'd worktop.

The UJK Parf Guide system is actually a more accurate and less expensive option.

[Jim Becker]

I agree with Victor...either the UJK Parf Guide system or a shop-built "tee square" jig to drill with a router and a 20mm bit is the way to go unless you also plan on doing a lot of 32mm cabinetry. I made my own jig like described when I was working on the MFSC project awhile back.

BTW, you're correct that the spacing is 96mm

[Mike Holbrook]

I got involved in projects and forgot about this thread until I got back to the actual issue on my work table/Adjust A Bench.

I actually thought about buying the Parf Drilling System. I forgot I had ordered the LV Dog Hole Bushings, both the 3/4” and the 20mm. Now I am thinking about taking Jim Becker’s suggestion and making a T Square, that can use the LV Bushings. Both bushings appear to be the same diameter.

I actually called LV regarding the Wood Owl drill bits they started carrying recently. I love my Wood Owl Ultra Smooth drill bits. I have had one small issue though. The 3/4” bit I have is actually 19mm. I called LV to check to see if their 3/4” bit was actually 3/4” or 19mm. LV being LV, the guy helping me went and actually measured one. Turns out theirs is 19mm too. The guy helping me suggested that the 19mm bit fit their 3/4” bushing about perfectly. The only issue remaining is the Veritas Hold Down I have does not like 19mm holes, although to be fair the odd threading on the sides tends to have issues with most holes. Who would have thought 1mm could cause all these issues?

Further research shows the 3/4” bushing rests in a 1” hole (25.4mm) and the 20mm rests in a 25mm hole. I realize LV offers bits for drilling the holes, although they are often out of stock. The LV brad point bit appears to be specically designed for the job but is about twice as expensive as the longer and I suspect better Wood Owl bit. Maybe it is time to invest in Fostner bits that could do this job? Guess I get to research whether Fostner bit kits are actual imperial or metric equivalents...

[Mike Holbrook]

I drug out my LV 3/4” and 20mm bushings. I spent quite a while trying to compare the two. Using a Fastcap Metric/Standard measuring tape I was hard pressed to find a measurable difference between the two. I tried holding the tops of the two bushings together and looking at a lamp through them. I still see little or no difference. I checked the directions that came with the 20mm bushing against the directions that came with the 3/4”. You guessed it, the instructions are the same. Now I wonder if the Parf system is some sort of compromised measurement as well?

There is a thread running on the Neander Forum on a similar subject.

[Peter Kelly]

Been thinking of ordering one of these and a 30mm bushing: http://www.cncdesign.co.uk/pro-jig-r...ft3lp-top.html



Looks considerably simpler than the alternatives..

[Mike Holbrook]

Looks like an attractive price if shipping for a large object is not too bad. Not sure how one drills the holes? Looks like the bushings shown are for positioning the jig, not drilling holes.

[Jim Becker]

Mike, I believe you initially start the first row with two small indexing holes and then use that row to position the next by inverting it so that the 20mm short dogs are in the two end holes.

[Mike Holbrook]

I guess Peter is in the UK?

I believe I see the bushing holes Jim mentions in the link, picture, Peter provides.

It seems one has to decide on a system and then buy the parts to make it work.....

The information Jim sent me seems to suggest he uses a 30mm router bushing to position a 20mm bit to drill his holes. The system Peter links us to apparently uses a smaller indexing system. I have LV bushings that apparently require drilling 25mm for 20mm bushings or 1” holes for 3/4” bushings. I don’t think I have a 25mm or 1” bit to drill the holes to hold the bushings. My old set of Irwin drill bits is not marked and missing a few larger bits, which is why I am not sure.

I wonder if anyone cares to comment on interchanging 20mm & 3/4” bench accesories in 20mm or 3/4” holes? Sure would make things simpler. I wonder whether there is a significant enough difference to warrant drilling both? It would seem that once a hold down or two was whacked with a wooden mallet a few times any difference might melt away?

[Jim Becker]

If you want your dogs to be consistently accurate, then matching them to the hole size is important. The metric measurement of a 3/4" dog (which is likely slightly undersized to be usable in a 3/4" hole) is going to really sloppy in a 20mm hole. And dogs made for the 20mm system are going to be too big to fit in a 3/4" hole. So yes...choose your system for the holes and dogs.

[Mike Holbrook]

I guess we need to talk about specific benches and bench devices. I like the Festool clamping devices but I do not think they apply to many of my bench challenges. I have an MFT table and a sawing/glue up cabinet top with an actual MFT top in it. The cabinet is also designed to host multiple tops. I am thinking I will modify it for Festool clamp use.

The AAB I am designing to suplement the smaller benches I have and plan to build. I have grown accustomed to shorter benches. They are easier to walk/work around and I will be working in a smaller shop soon. On my main planing, chiseling.....benches, I plan to use: LV Surface Clamps, LV Hold Downs, LV Planing Stops, LV Bench Anchors... as my main work holding devices. I believe most of these devices are available with 3/4” or 20mm posts, some of the posts can actually adjust to the hole they are in. The LV Hold Down has sharp raised edges that tend to grip even in larger holes....Dogs can obviously be ordered or made in different sizes.

The question then becomes can the bench accessories I mention be adapted to work in both types of holes? Does it even matter what size holes I drill? I am attempting to standardize my shop for Wood Owl drill bits, and would prefer not to buy imperial, single purpose bits. LV offers a large selection of these bits, which turn out to actually be metric. I am also trying to convert to/think in metric.

[Mike Holbrook]

I also find that LV makes Bushings for drilling smaller holes too. These bushings apparently screw into 5/8” host bushings. Maybe I make a T jig, as Jim did, which has a small indexing Bushing, say 5mms, and a seperate 20mm bushing to drill bench dog holes. I believe the smaller bushings can all thread into the 5/8” “mother” bushing, which may justify a place for them in my kit anyway.

[Jim Becker]

If you're considering moving to metric (as I have already recently done for my woodworking projects with the exception of CNC), then it might make sense to embrace that with your new "Swiss cheese table"...especially since you already have the MFT, etc. Being able to use the accessories across multiple work surfaces is a handy and, honestly, prudent, flexible thing. That's my thought. I already wish that my "bench bench" had 20mm holes so it was consistent with my MFT, etc., in that respect...

[Mike Holbrook]

Going Metric
Nothing to do but to do it, and this is a good place to start. I believe I will be better off starting now than later, for the reasons Jim mentions. Still have to figure out which Wood Owl bit to use.

I called LV. They say the 13/16 Wood Owl bit is actually 20mm. The 1” bit is actually 25mm, in case anyone else needs that info. I Just ordered both bits. I will post again if I have a problem getting the Wood Owl 13/16-20mm bit to fit in the LV 20mm bushing, or if the 1”-25mm hole does not fit the 20mm bushing.

I am also ordering smaller drill bushings: two 5/8” inserts and bushings for 5mm,7mm,8mm. Planing to use the smaller hole to index my T jig with.

[Mike Holbrook]

Turns out the 13/16 Wood Owl bit is not 20mm. It is 21mm, written on the side of the one I just got from LV. Close to the 5% difference Rob Lee said in another thread may be a problem....Very confusing to mark them in imperial when they are actually metric.

I have no idea what my next move will be. I suspect a 21mm Wood Owl bit isn’t going to fit in a 20mm bushing.