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Thread: Guide System for drilling bench etc. holes LR 32/Festool

  1. #16
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    That's a bummer, Mike...you really do want a real 20mm cutter for the holes so that the dogs work as they are designed. They are all a few thou under so they slip in and out; some more snuggly than others. 21mm makes for major sloppy!
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    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  2. #17
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    I called LV again about the continuing issues I am having drilling accurate holes in bench tops. I talked to a very nice lady and we finally decided I needed to send an email with actual invoice and part numbers, which I have done. No responce yet.

    One of the problems I am finding is router bushings and router bits are not typically designed to drill through thick bench tops. The Parf guide kit and the LV bushings explain in the directions that they can drill trough a 2” top. Unfortunately most bench tops these days are much thicker 3-5”. The top for my Noden bench will be two sheets of 3/4 ply and a sacrificial 3/4” piece of MDF, making it over 2”. Parts of the top have 1 1/2” 2x under the plywood. I plan to make my main hardwood bench at least 3 1/2” thick.

    I understand the value of the Festool hole matrix and the accuracy and utility it provides. It just seems like there is no real system for drilling holes in a bench top with that same degree of accuracy. I guess one could start the holes with a Parf guide or router and bushing and then finish the holes with an appropriate sized auger drill bit, but my guess is that would introduce some inacuracy that might throw the matrix off. It seems the answer is some sort of jig designed to work with auger bits.

    The main issue I seem to have identified is, Wood Owl may or may not make a 20mm drill bit, which seems very odd. LV stocks a 3/4” which is actually 19mm. The next size is 13/16, which is actually 21mm. The regular Wood Owl Ultra Smooth drill bits are 7.5” long, which can drill through 3-5” bench tops, without causing any significant tear out. The drill bits LV sells, when used in their bushings ( designed to be used in 1 1/2” stock) may not be long enough. The Parf guide is designed to work with specific bit shafts. I see no way to use regular auger bits with with the Parf guide. I have checked a few other suppliers of Wood Owl bits. The imperical equivalent chart seems to skip over a 20mm bit.

  3. #18
    This system is plenty easy to use, accurate, and repeatable.

    https://www.festoolproducts.com/rout...CABEgJysvD_BwE

  4. #19
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    Mike, I suspect if you use the Parf system or a router setup, there will be a deep enough hole for you to use a good quality spade bit to complete the hole through to the bottom. The hole will act as a guide for the bit. As long as the top couple inches are clean, you'll be good for the dogs.
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    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  5. #20
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    Thanks for tha link Dave,
    So the jig you link to appears to use a 30mm router drilling ring and 20mm router bit to make holes in Festool table tops. I suspect that it would work if employed as Jim suggests above, to start a hole that an auger, spade or Fostner bit with extender could then drill to full depth.

    The jig you reference appears to be manufacturerd to the same tolerances as Festool offerings, so I assumed it would be as accurate. I may have to go that route as I am not finding such a jig, designed to work with Auger bits. The Parf system uses Fostner bits which may have the same depth limitations as router based systems, maybe a little deeper.

    I have a drill press, which may lower an auger or Fostner bit accurately enough to to not bugger up the exatly 20mm hole, exactly positioned.

    The Parf system looks like it winds up costing $250 for everything needed. My issue is I am having trouble shelling out the money for a bunch of pieces that only solve a single issue. Dave’s recomendation costs half as much and requires less parts, which would be nice. Still trying to figure out if both systems require the same amount of set up complication. I am thinking Dave’s sloution may require a little less complicated set up. I am also calculating on what kinds of drill bits I want to maintain sets of: Augers vs Fostners vs Brad Points.......Also calculating on whether or not I need the accuracy of a Festool table on the hole grid of a heavy workbench.
    Last edited by Mike Holbrook; 05-20-2018 at 1:00 PM.

  6. #21
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    If in your shoes I would find a cabinet shop with a CNC router and see what they will charge to do all the holes for you. Keep in mind the hole doesn't need to be 20mm all the way through, you can back drill with a larger bit for the remaining thickness.

  7. #22
    Mike, for your Noden bench I don't see why you couldn't use the dominofix to cut each 3/4 sheet individually before you glued them up. It will easily handle the 3/4" sacrificial sheet by itself, when it comes time to replace that. As long as your sheets are sized exactly the same you shouldn't have any alignment issues.

    Why do you want the holes to go all the way through on the thick tops ? I don't think you'll be able to use the L-type clamps on a 2 1/4" thick top , and I'm pretty certain you won't be able to feed them through a top that's 3-4" thick either. All the dogs and surface clamps I'm familiar with only need around 20-25mm of depth to engage.

    That depth is easily achievable with the dominofix or any of the other ones for that matter.

    What am I missing here ?

  8. #23
    Mike, I encourage you to take a look at the Parf Guide system and consider using it to make a Stanton Bench. I know the 20mm dog hole system and spacing has been discussed nearly to death in this thread, so I'll try to avoid the re-hashing. If you're not familiar with the Stanton bench, search YouTube for Dave Stanton. He's an Australian woodworker who has designed a table-top bench that incorporates 20mm dog holes, t-track, and some strips of the "grippy" strips you'd find on a tracksaw track to hold it in place. It's really a clever system. Check it out!
    A bad day woodworking is better than a good day working. ~Author unknown

  9. #24
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    Dave is correct about the “L” shaped clamps not working with a top thicker than 1”. I know this because I’ve built more than one MFT top. 25.4 mm needs to have the edges softened in order for the “L” clamp to angle thru the top

    For a Roubo style bench I have used a drill bit like a Forstner bit in a drill press. Roubo’s are two piece tops about a foot or so wide. Setup the drill press with extension tables and a fence then use a Zobo bit from FESTOOL with a backer board underneath. It works perfectly that’s the beauty of building a Roubo style bench you can take the top to the drill press for accuracy and reach to either side of the top by turning it end for end

    good luck on the build
    sometimes it's people who no one imagines anything of who do the things that no one imagines. Alan Turing

  10. #25
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    Some great thoughts guys, I appreciate them.

    I have an MFT table and a cabinet with a Festool insert in it that work great with all the Festool clamps. On my existing Hammer bench I use: Veritas Planing Stops, jigs I have made with Veritas Bench Anchors, Veritas Surface Clamps, dogs, and Veritas Hold Downs. I think the Veritas Hold Down is the only accessory that will need deeper holes. I plan to use the same accessories on the Roubo and the Noden ATB.

  11. #26
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    Something occured to me while working on my Noden AAB bench. My plan was always to make the bench with a raised edge so I could use different tops on the same bench: MDF, Tempered Masonite, a piece of HD poly 3/8- 1/2” thick that Lowe’s sells in 4x8 sheets, cheap foam insulation (great for cutting up sheet goods with a Festool saw), rubber horse stall matts from Tractor Supply....

    Currently I have two pieces of 3/4” plywood on a 6’x22” 2x4 base. What if I make 20mm holes in both of those sheets and then make both a 3/4” and 20mm top to fit over that base? I think my LV 3/4” devices would work in the 3/4” top and the Festool clamps would obviously work in the 20mm top. I think the slightly smaller shafts on the LV clamps are designed to work in 5/8” thick tops? Certainly the slightly larger 20mm, lower portion, would not hinder the 3/4” clamps. If the LV clamps do not grip well in the 3/4 x 3/4” holes I might be able to place a sheet of 1/8” or 1/4” rubber matt below the removable top, only drilling 3/4” diameter holes through it.

    image.jpg
    Last edited by Mike Holbrook; 06-26-2018 at 4:43 PM.

  12. #27
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    Mike, I think that would work fine for things like dogs. Hold-fasts, however, I'd avoid without the requisite thickness for them to be effective. The easiest way for that would be when 20mm is on top of 29mm, but you'd have to find hold-fasts designed for 20mm, although the 3/4" "might work, despite the extra wiggle room. Requires testing. It might be worth making a "foot square", give or take, mock-up of your proposal so you can test dogs and other things with various combinations.

    Another thought...make both 3/4" and 20mm holes in the base layer(s) in an offset grid matrix and tailor the individual removable surfaces so they match the matrix for the hole size they accommodate. That should work with pretty much anything.
    Last edited by Jim Becker; 06-26-2018 at 4:27 PM.
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    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  13. #28
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    We have the same concerns Jim. Even though I have seen people post the idea of drilling the bottoms of dog holes larger so hold fasts work.....and 20mm is close to 3/4” to start with... Odd # holes 3/4”, even 20mm works too.

    I may do some experimenting with my LV Hold Down, as you suggest, as I figure it may be the hard one to fit with all the raised rings on the sides...The Surface Clamp can actually tighten in the hole so it may work better.
    Last edited by Mike Holbrook; 06-26-2018 at 4:58 PM.

  14. #29
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    I found the drill bits, in the picture below, on Amazon. They just arrived. I am hoping thses 6-6.5” bits may allow me to drill dog holes in benches that are 3.5-5” thick. I have been unable to find a 20mm WoodOwl bit. Even though they are labeled as imperial, much research has revealed that these bits are actually “metric imperial equivalents”. The result being that the actual bits go from 19mm to 21mm skipping 20mm, which seems very odd as the Wood Owl bit in the picture marked as 3/8” is actually 9.5mm, just under 3/8”.

    The bits in the picture below were just under $30 for the 5 metric bits, (16mm, 18mm, 20mm, 22mm, 25mm, a bit extension and an allen wrench to adjust the screws in the extension with). These bits actually have four spurs and are reported to be hardened steal. The shanks are 1/4” hex. The bit protruding from a piece cut off a Festool table top (that I plan to use as a hole drilling guide) seems to fit the 20mm hole reasonably well.

    Maybe these bits will finally provide a system for drilling 20mm holes through bench tops over 2” thick. I needed a 25mm bit to drill a hole for a 20mm bushing anyway.

    The bit on the far left side is a Dewalt “Bullet” bit, sort of like a brad point with a dull point. These bits work fairly well but tend to leave rough edges. The hole in the edge/handle, to the left of the bits, was drilled with the 3/8” Bullet bit in the picture.

    EA28CA8A-74F2-4A24-9567-DCB884732725.jpg
    Last edited by Mike Holbrook; 07-01-2018 at 2:09 PM.

  15. #30
    Last year, Woodpecker offered a Hole-Boring Jig as a OneTIME Tool. Might find one of those on the secondary market.

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